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Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree'

Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Which part are you struggling with?

The part that is cut off from reality. You write "The system is biased in favor of whites" but we see little evidence of that. When cognitive skills are controlled for there is no wage inequality. On the other hand, when we look at the economic returns to education, meaning how much of an income boost does each additional year of education earn the student, we see this:

pagesfromreturnstoeducabw9.jpg



If the system was biased in favor of whites then we would expect to see whites getting a bigger boost for every additional year of schooling. Instead we see the opposite. Why is that? It's because employers are incentivized to hire minorities and they reward those minority employees who earn degrees with higher incomes than those earned by whites with the same level of schooling.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Thank you captain obvious

The only thing obvious was the lack of actual information you seemed to have on this very topic. Now, you have it and can argue from a position of actual fact. You are welcome.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

You're making the same error in comprehension that the research paper did in it's experimental design but they at least acknowledged the limitation of their design. Your error is in assuming that the metric of employee quality is comprehensively accounted for on a resume.

No, only that it accounts for quality better than the color of somebody's skin does. Duh.

There is a large body of economics literature which addresses unobservable skills

All you're doing here is defining racism- the idea that members of a race are inherently inferior in some way you can't quite put your figure on and which cannot be disproven by any actual information from reality...
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

If we control for sex and look at women and how returns to each additional year of education vary by race, we see this:


racereturnswomeneducati.jpg



Look at the tighter clustering back in 1979 compared to the more dispersed results in 1999. In earlier eras, without federal discrimination law being abused by the government, employers were rewarding women for their education in a much more equitable process. Now though, black women are advantaged because when an employer hires a black woman the employer gets a bonanza - woman, black, and if she is homosexual, then the employer hits the trifecta and makes the racial and gender bean counters very happy.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Structural racism is illegal. If this is a problem somewhere, you address it through the legal system. You don't create more racism.

So every employer that doesnt hire as many blacks as whites to the ratio of their applicants according to their elegibility should be sued. Quite a ballsy undertaking. Something tells me we are where we are today because that is unfeasable towards the goal of getting minorities hired as equally as whites.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

All you're doing here is defining racism- the idea that members of a race are inherently inferior in some way you can't quite put your figure on and which cannot be disproven by any actual information from reality...

If the stereotypes that employers are acting on are inaccurate then the employers are hurting their own self-interest. Any employer who disregards the stereotype, if it's false, will be better staffed than his competitors.

As I noted earlier, the root of the problem is the stereotype, not employers acting on additional information as a means of minimizing the risks they incur when executing hiring decisions. Invalidate the stereotype and then the employers can't use it as a tool for risk minimization.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

The part that is cut off from reality. You write "The system is biased in favor of whites" but we see little evidence of that. When cognitive skills are controlled for there is no wage inequality.

We've already been over that. Presumably racial prejudice plays less of a role, or maybe even no role, once you know somebody. That doesn't challenge my argument about hiring at all.

If the system was biased in favor of whites then we would expect to see whites getting a bigger boost for every additional year of schooling.

Huh? That doesn't follow at all. That is equally consistent with many possibilities. You data doesn't tell us anything about how much bias there is for one race vs another, just how fast somebody's odds improve as they get more education... Your chart would be consistent with, for example, whites having a much better chance of getting a job at low levels of education and a slightly smaller gap at high education levels. That is probably true. At jobs that require high levels of education there is a lot more hard data one can rely on, so bias would play less of a role. That doesn't mean there isn't bias...
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

This is patently untrue but we are having to pretend that it is.

What happened to Martin Luther King's hope that we should judge people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin? It is Democrats who are most responsible for not implementing that dream. Everyone should have equal rights and opportunities and only when that is accomplished will conditions improve for all..

Im starting to think some of you were dropped on your heads... latinos and blacks have had a headstart disadvantage in a largely white controlled society since its inception. There is a structural bias against them to this day that cannot be readily explained. Allowing that bias to continue is in itself a racist act and would continue deprivation of their communities. Utopian rants that if everyone were just treated equal in a society where government didnt interfere are pretty much conceptual dookey. If older folks who are equally qualified as younger folks have trouble getting the tech jobs that they need, then the government should step in there too.

So we were racist 45 years ago, that can't affect us today! sure :roll:
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

If the stereotypes that employers are acting on are inaccurate then the employers are hurting their own self-interest. Any employer who disregards the stereotype, if it's false, will be better staffed than his competitors.

As I noted earlier, the root of the problem is the stereotype, not employers acting on additional information as a means of minimizing the risks they incur when executing hiring decisions. Invalidate the stereotype and then the employers can't use it as a tool for risk minimization.

How are you going to help invalidate the stereotype by removing their class mobility?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

If the stereotypes that employers are acting on are inaccurate then the employers are hurting their own self-interest. Any employer who disregards the stereotype, if it's false, will be better staffed than his competitors.

Correct. That's why the civil rights act corresponded with a huge surge in GDP. Employers were forced not to discriminate so intensely, so their productivity went up. The optimal economic efficiency would be if there were no racial bias- black applicants and white applicants with the same resumes getting interviews equally often.

As I noted earlier, the root of the problem is the stereotype, not employers acting on additional information as a means of minimizing the risks they incur when executing hiring decisions. Invalidate the stereotype and then the employers can't use it as a tool for risk minimization.

Yes. Get cracking on that. Seems you've got quite a bit of work eliminating the stereotype in your own thinking.
 
Look at the tighter clustering back in 1979 compared to the more dispersed results in 1999. In earlier eras, without federal discrimination law being abused by the government, employers were rewarding women for their education in a much more equitable process. Now though, black women are advantaged because when an employer hires a black woman the employer gets a bonanza - woman, black, and if she is homosexual, then the employer hits the trifecta and makes the racial and gender bean counters very happy.

Youre not the only one on earth crunching SPSS... write a paper on it or send it to the president if it's so damned irrefutable.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

How are you going to help invalidate the stereotype by removing their class mobility?

WHY is it that Latinos have the reputation for being more hard working, more pliable and more reliable than blacks? Where did that stereotype come from? How did it arise? How did it get such a large degree of acceptance?

The same processes which give birth to stereotypes and help them spread can also be used to kill stereotypes and invalidate them in a broad audience.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

No, only that it accounts for quality better than the color of somebody's skin does. Duh.



All you're doing here is defining racism- the idea that members of a race are inherently inferior in some way you can't quite put your figure on and which cannot be disproven by any actual information from reality...

I agree. However, the operative word being inherent. I believe humans in each and every race have to potential to be all they can be and I believe that the color of one's skin does not lessen or enhance one's ability achieve as much as the next man by genetic design. But I do believe that cultural influences can warp the potential of any human regardless of their race.

It's hard to say to the black man, after he has been held down for 200 years, "Okay, you're equal now. Go forth and do good," and expect him to compete on a level playing field with those of old money, education and stature. But how long does it really take to play catch up? Our black communities need a helping hand. I get it.

But right now, our African American brothers are going through a rough time. There is rampant crime, violence, civil disobedience, and many other sociological diseases amongst their midst. Many that cannot be blamed on "whitey" anymore. (Unless, of course, Sharpton or Jackson is telling the story. In which case, everything is whitey's fault, but I digress. :roll:) It is a problem only black folks themselves can remedy. A total collapse of the family unit.

White people turn on the nightly news and 8 times out of ten, the crimes they see are commited by blacks folks on MLK Blvd. They turn on the cable channel with the prison documentaries, and it looks like 9 out of 10 convicts are black. The drug and bullet ridden ghettos are full of black people drinking 40's on the front porch in the middle of the day in the middle of the week.

This is what white folks are seeing. White people are becoming afraid of blacks. Just as one might fear leaving their child with a pitt bull, because of their reputation, some white people might fear to associate with black people.

This is a white culture thing too. I know too many black people and work with too many black people to swallow the racial hype. These are good, hard working, family people. But the white person who only makes it into town once and a while, and only sees black people at bus stops, might form their opinions on what they see on TV.

But, make no mistake, our African American communities need to get a grip. White people should do all they can to help them too because eventually, this violence could end up on the doorsteps of their lily white, hedged trimmed neighborhoods too.
 
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Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

WHY is it that Latinos have the reputation for being more hard working, more pliable and more reliable than blacks? Where did that stereotype come from? How did it arise? How did it get such a large degree of acceptance?

The same processes which give birth to stereotypes and help them spread can also be used to kill stereotypes and invalidate them in a broad audience.

The argument from stereotypes -- you can't make this **** up.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p


This is just Becker rehashed. If you are correct in your observation, then the problem solves itself. Irrational discriminators will be run out of business by employers who do not discriminate.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

The argument from stereotypes -- you can't make this **** up.

You make it sound like a bad thing.


Stereotype Accuracy: Toward Appreciating Group Differences

Stereotype Accuracy breaks this taboo by presenting research related to stereotype accuracy, arguing that understanding stereotype accuracy is crucial to both social psychology and to its applications (e.g., to improving intergroup relations). The goals of this volume are to reduce commonplace errors in modern social science by challenging the off-hand and undocumented claims appearing in the scholarly literature that stereotypes are "typically" inaccurate, resistant to change, overgeneralized, exaggerated, and generally destructive.​
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

WHY is it that Latinos have the reputation for being more hard working, more pliable and more reliable than blacks? Where did that stereotype come from? How did it arise? How did it get such a large degree of acceptance?

The same processes which give birth to stereotypes and help them spread can also be used to kill stereotypes and invalidate them in a broad audience.

Hrrm iz it cuz dey wuz only allowed to be manyouwal laybor for a long taim and now dey have to stay dat way cause you a racist and wownt give tehm a jawb?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

It's hard to say to the black man, after he has been held down for 200 years, "Okay, you're equal now. Go forth and do good," and expect him to compete on a level playing field with those of old money, education and stature. But how long does it really take to play catch up? Our black communities need a helping hand. I get it.

Agreed, but we're a LOOONG way from helping black people out. At present if a white applicant and a black applicant apply for the same job with the same resume- so that is the case of the black person who has overcome all disadvantages through hard work and has arrived at a point where they are exactly equally qualified for a job as the white applicant- the white applicant still gets the interview 2.4 times as often. If we just even got to the point of treating blacks equally to whites that would mean almost a DOUBLING of black's economic prospects. That would just be to get us even, not even to begin giving them an advantage to counter balance historical inequality.

Despite that- despite the fact that we are continuing to discriminate against blacks to a massive extent- if you chart the median income of each race ever since the Civil Rights Act you see a pretty interesting pattern. All races have risen at about the same rate. When one moved does, they all move down, when one goes up they all go up by about the same amount. But, the gap between whites and blacks has remained constant for all 50 years- slightly over $20k/year. So they're moving forward just as fast as whites are, but to catch up they would actually need to move forward much faster. Given that they are still suffering from discrimination, just the fact that they're moving forward at the same pace as whites who are still benefiting from discrimination is an astounding success.

White people turn on the nightly news and 8 times out of ten, the crimes they see are commited by blacks folks on MLK Blvd.

That may be true, but that just tells you how pervasive the racism is. Whites commit 7 out of 10 crimes in the US each year. Roughly in proportion with the percentage of the population they represent. So if black people are being depicted by the media as committing 8 out of 10 crimes then the media is out of control.

Also, crime is a symptom of economic inequality to a huge extent. If it is also a cause of discrimination, which in turn causes further inequality, then that's a tough cycle to break. It requires extraordinary efforts to fight discrimination as well as crime, not just finger pointing.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

This is just Becker rehashed. If you are correct in your observation, then the problem solves itself. Irrational discriminators will be run out of business by employers who do not discriminate.

Yeah, if life were magic... But it isn't. The invisible hand isn't that perfect. If it were we would never have had the overt discrimination of the Jim Crow days.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Agreed, but we're a LOOONG way from helping black people out. At present if a white applicant and a black applicant apply for the same job with the same resume- [removed blatant editorializing]- the white applicant still gets the interview 2.4 times as often

But not with the same unmeasured variables WHICH THE RESEARCHERS NOTED.

Despite that- despite the fact that we are continuing to discriminate against blacks to a massive extent- if you chart the median income of each race ever since the Civil Rights Act you see a pretty interesting pattern. All races have risen at about the same rate. When one moved does, they all move down, when one goes up they all go up by about the same amount. But, the gap between whites and blacks has remained constant for all 50 years- slightly over $20k/year. So they're moving forward just as fast as whites are, but to catch up they would actually need to move forward much faster.

The data shows that there is no discrimination. That pay gap is a reflection of the different levels of mean IQ. When you control for IQ then the pay gap disappears.

So if black people are being depicted by the media as committing 8 out of 10 crimes then the media is out of control.

When you employ your revisionist tactics then you should expect pushback.

Murder Rates per 100,000 population:

White Male (1997) = 6.7
Black Male (1997) = 47.1
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Im starting to think some of you were dropped on your heads... latinos and blacks have had a headstart disadvantage in a largely white controlled society since its inception.

I agree that Blacks were at a disadvantage but Latinos? How so? Latinos at one time controlled much of what is the USA and they still have Mexico , Central America and South America. How are they at a disadvantage?
There is a structural bias against them to this day that cannot be readily explained.

Of course it can't, and your statements verify that.
Allowing that bias to continue is in itself a racist act

What bias? Show where there is race based bias?
and would continue deprivation of their communities.

There are certainly problems in some Communities, Black, White and Latino, but that is more a cultural problem rather than anything race driven.
Utopian rants that if everyone were just treated equal in a society where government didnt interfere are pretty much conceptual dookey.

Nonsense. There have been many examples where people have gotten along despite racial differences.

If older folks who are equally qualified as younger folks have trouble getting the tech jobs that they need, then the government should step in there too.

So employers should hire incompetent people to meet government quotas? Do you have any idea yet why businesses are moving out of the United States?
So we were racist 45 years ago, that can't affect us today! sure :roll:

Are you still a racist after 45 years? Are those still the conditions in your State?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

So every employer that doesnt hire as many blacks as whites to the ratio of their applicants according to their elegibility should be sued. Quite a ballsy undertaking. Something tells me we are where we are today because that is unfeasable towards the goal of getting minorities hired as equally as whites.

And somehow creating racist organizations are? Now yes, why do we create laws if we have absolutely no intention of enforceing them? (I'm just argueing this, we do enforce them).

Do you not have to enforce these other "solutions"? Why would you not support legally enforcing our laws? Or is it really not about racism?
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

But not with the same unmeasured variables WHICH THE RESEARCHERS NOTED.

Nothing that has anything to do with anything. As I've explained.

The data shows that there is no discrimination. That pay gap is a reflection of the different levels of mean IQ. When you control for IQ then the pay gap disappears.

We've been over this several times. If it is true, as you claim, that there is no discrimination for wages within a position, that doesn't mean there is no discrimination. There can still be plenty of discrimination in hiring, layoffs, what types of jobs people get, etc.

When you employ your revisionist tactics then you should expect pushback.

Murder Rates per 100,000 population:

White Male (1997) = 6.7
Black Male (1997) = 47.1

We were talking about overall crime, not just murder, and we were talking about the percentages of crimes committed by each race, not per capita. I'm not revising anything. Certainly black people commit more violent crime per capita. Doesn't mean it is realistic to depict it as though they commit anywhere near 80% of all crimes, since that would be obviously ridiculously white supremacist.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Agreed, but we're a LOOONG way from helping black people out.

Because they are unable to help themselves?

At present if a white applicant and a black applicant apply for the same job with the same resume- so that is the case of the black person who has overcome all disadvantages through hard work and has arrived at a point where they are exactly equally qualified for a job as the white applicant- the white applicant still gets the interview 2.4 times as often.

Today by and large one is not able to tell the race of an applicant until they get an interview.

Despite that- despite the fact that we are continuing to discriminate against blacks to a massive extent-

Total bull****.
 
Re: Andre Carson: Tea party wants blacks 'hanging on a tree' Read more: http://www.p

Because they are unable to help themselves?

White people hold the vast majority of management or hiring positions, so just blurting out that they should fix it themselves is just a half assed attempt to distract from the issue. Blaming the victim is cute and all, but not relevant to what we're talking about and certainly no excuse for continued discrimination.

Today by and large one is not able to tell the race of an applicant until they get an interview.

That's why the study looked at low income jobs. They're jobs where you drop off the resume in person. Other studies have found similar things in other types of job markets, but IMO this is the best one since they are using exactly the same resume.

Total bull****.

The assertion of a right winger just doesn't suffice to counter scientific evidence collected by some of the most respected institutions in the world. If you have evidence, please present it.
 
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