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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

  1. #981
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by O_Guru View Post
    Still waiting for this:
    I challenge anybody to prove the following fallacies.

    he was a kid
    he was hiding
    he was murdered


    can anybody prove these 3 fallacies to be true?
    I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you on waiting for someone to prove those things.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you on waiting for someone to prove those things.
    Id never hold my breath waiting for someone to prove a lie, i could hurt myself, but its fun to watch them try.
    PURE STUPIDITY 1.) Glenn Beck doesnt lie. 2.) Obama is Jesus like 3.) Sara Palin is so smart & shes a great speaker. 4.) Obama does just about everything perfect. 5.) Fox doesn' t lean right 6.) Pro-Choice is no different than Pro-Slavery 7.) MSNBC doesn't lean left. 8.) What TSA does is no different than sexual assault & child porn.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by O_Guru View Post

    1. thats NOT the definition of MURDER
    Yes it is. Here's the quote from the Colorado penal code:

    "A person commits the crime of murder in the second degree if the person knowingly causes the death of a person." Legal Resources


    "Knowingly" in this context is synonymous with "intentionally." Check out, e.g., Black's law dictionary for a discussion of how the terms intentional and knowingly are used in criminal law.

    Incidentally, given that these guys laid in wait prior to killing the trespasser, they might also be guilty of first degree murder. That's harder to prove, though.

    I've already posted the Colorado penal code statute related to valid affirmative defenses. It's many pages back. If you'd like me to re-post it I'd be willing to do so. You'll find that it's consistent with the post you attempted to reply to. In the future I'd suggest doing some actual research before making bull**** claims that you can't back up with evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by O_Guru View Post
    2. this is nothing more than your opinion with ZERO proof, ZERO lmao
    Nonsense. The Colorado penal code is consistent with exactly what I've been saying. You may not like the law, but please stop pretending to understand it.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you on waiting for someone to prove those things.
    He doesn't need to. I already proved the third one and you damn well know it, which is why you have failed to reply to any of the half dozen or so posts in which I've challenged you to prove me wrong.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    There was still no other reason to use the term kid for this scumbag other than to fraudulently paint him as a child or minor.
    I'm sorry James, but you are making an issue of a very minor and really quite irrelevant point. I have not called the young man who was killed a 'kid', and I do not consider myself a 'kid', so I do not know why you are flogging this particular horse.

    I do not know how old you are, but I suspect that you are somewhere between 20 and 35, and there are older people who would refer to you as a kid as a matter of habit. I would consider that inappropriate from the perspective of my age group, but I would not take issue with it, nor would I presuppose they are expressing automatic support for your thoughts and actions by doing so. Neither would assume fraudulent intentions of the part of people who might refer to you as a kid.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    They are still scumbag sympathizers IE people who have misplaced their sympathies and sympathize with scumbags.
    I see what you mean, but I think using terms like 'scumbag' is not constructive in these decisions. It is a pejorative which makes objective discussion difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    It is because you do not know what that burglar is going do why lethal force is justified.
    Actually, in the absence of aggressive action by a potential burglar, the opposite is justified. Unless a threat is obvious, lethal force is not justified either by reason or existing law in most jurisdictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What good that that do other than getting himself blown up?
    RPG Minimum Arming Distance: 5 Meters | The Real Revo
    I was using hyperbole - the likelihood of an RPG lying about in a shed in an used car lot is not high.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If he attempted to flee then why not go the way his buddy went? people do not want to get caught and will sometimes do what ever it takes to keep themselves from getting caught including harming the occupants of that property.
    I take your point, but perhaps the shed was closer than the fence, and offered more immediate shelter and means of escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The fact that man was even tried is atrocious. It makes the statement that criminals matter more than you and that you have no right to defend yourself or property. Hopefully they make more attempts.

    The fact your country would prosecute a property owner for using lethal force to defend himself and property means that the only people your justice system gives a **** about are the criminals. So it is not not a ad hominem to state that I am surprised your country has not banned rape victims from defending themselves.
    Well, I don't want to hijack this thread with too much discussion about the Tony Martin case, so perhaps I will start a thread in which we can discuss that matter in greater depth. British Law does not prosecute anyone for using appropriate force, including lethal force, to defend themselves or the lives of others. The Tony martin case was not one of self-defence, so extrapolating the circumstances of that shooting to include self-defence in the case of rape, is not reasonable. Yours was not strictly an ad hominem, (that can really only properly apply to a natural person, not a society,) but it was an unreasonable and unjustified characterisation of the laws of the British nation.

    James, you and I have 'crossed swords' for many years at another place, and while I do not agree with many of your stated values, I do respect you as an intelligent and sincere poster. So let us continue our discussions upon a mutally respectful basis.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    The true problem is that the lawyer(s) on this thread are right - legally.

    Many other people on this thread are right - ethically.

    What we need to do is change the law to defend life and property against malicious intent.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    He doesn't need to. I already proved the third one and you damn well know it, which is why you have failed to reply to any of the half dozen or so posts in which I've challenged you to prove me wrong.
    If what those shop owners did was murder then why despite evidence that one of them shot the burglar were none of them tried and convicted of murder?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post


    I see what you mean, but I think using terms like 'scumbag' is not constructive in these decisions. It is a pejorative which makes objective discussion difficult.
    I realize that by using the term scumbag little girls sometimes throw a fit. But grown men should have no problem with the term.


    Actually, in the absence of aggressive action by a potential burglar, the opposite is justified. Unless a threat is obvious, lethal force is not justified either by reason or existing law in most jurisdictions.
    The fact that you have no idea what exactly that burglar is going to do means lethal force should always be the first option. You can't assume that someone is just there to steal your property and leave once they obtained what they wanted to steal.And even if that is the case you have every right to use what ever means necessary to prevent someone from stealing that property.


    I take your point, but perhaps the shed was closer than the fence, and offered more immediate shelter and means of escape.


    Of the shelter offered him a means of being able to ambush the property owners.

    Well, I don't want to hijack this thread with too much discussion about the Tony Martin case, so perhaps I will start a thread in which we can discuss that matter in greater depth. British Law does not prosecute anyone for using appropriate force, including lethal force, to defend themselves or the lives of others. The Tony martin case was not one of self-defence, so extrapolating the circumstances of that shooting to include self-defence in the case of rape, is not reasonable. Yours was not strictly an ad hominem, (that can really only properly apply to a natural person, not a society,) but it was an unreasonable and unjustified characterisation of the laws of the British nation.

    James, you and I have 'crossed swords' for many years at another place, and while I do not agree with many of your stated values, I do respect you as an intelligent and sincere poster. So let us continue our discussions upon a mutally respectful basis.
    The fact your country would prosecute man for using lethal force against a burglar says that your justice system cares more about scumbags than the honest law abiding citizen.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If what those shop owners did was murder then why despite evidence that one of them shot the burglar were none of them tried and convicted of murder?
    For the same reason O.J. was not convicted of murder.....an imperfect justice system.

  10. #990
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    For the same reason O.J. was not convicted of murder.....an imperfect justice system.
    OJ went to trial for murder. These shop keepers did not go trial. With the shop keepers there was a confession,weapon that killed the burglar, evidence and witness that one of them shot the burglar, I do not think you can say that about the OJ Simpson case. This happened in El Paso County in Colorado a liberal state, not El Paso Texas.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 09-20-11 at 12:35 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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