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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Yes, this debate is going around in circles. To answer your other questions, it is precisely because the shooters couldn't have - and didn't - know what the intentions of the would-be thief were, or whether or not their lives were in danger that they (the shooters) do not have a valid defense of self defense. Look at the statute. It requires that someone be under the reasonable belief of impending death or great bodily harm. This requires a showing of more than just "they might have wanted to attack, maybe." It requires a showing of an actual physical assault likely to lead to death or great bodily harm. No one has said that such a thing happened. If you don't believe me that this is the standard, look up the case law yourself. You'll find that I'm right.

    Moreover, in the eyes of the law it is irrelevant that the murder victim was armed. What matters is a) the shooters did not and could not have known that at the time, and b) even if they had known, the guy wasn't actually attacking them with the weapons at the time he was shot. If shooting someone who happens to be armed (even though they're not attacking you) was valid in the eyes of the law, I imagine quite a lot of you would re-think your position on carrying concealed weapons.

    You may wish the law operated differently. I'm sure many people would agree with you (although not me). Nevertheless, under the law as it stands, and based on the information we actually have, these guys committed murder.
    Alright. Sweet.

    When you've got three thugs barreling at you and they look mean, and you have a gun to defend yourself, let us know what they meant once they're done with you.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    Alright. Sweet.

    When you've got three thugs barreling at you and they look mean, and you have a gun to defend yourself, let us know what they meant once they're done with you.
    That would be silly. I'd much rather defend myself with appropriate levels of force. Makes a lot more sense.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    That would be silly. I'd much rather defend myself with appropriate levels of force. Makes a lot more sense.
    What's appropriate when three thugs are running towards you? A gun isn't appropriate?

    And if you have a gun and the three thugs charging at you don't show their guns, how are you to know whether or not to defend yourself?

    Know Fung Fu?

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Yes, this debate is going around in circles. To answer your other questions, it is precisely because the shooters couldn't have - and didn't - know what the intentions of the would-be thief were, or whether or not their lives were in danger that they (the shooters) do not have a valid defense of self defense. Look at the statute. It requires that someone be under the reasonable belief of impending death or great bodily harm. This requires a showing of more than just "they might have wanted to attack, maybe." It requires a showing of an actual physical assault likely to lead to death or great bodily harm. No one has said that such a thing happened. If you don't believe me that this is the standard, look up the case law yourself. You'll find that I'm right.

    Moreover, in the eyes of the law it is irrelevant that the murder victim was armed. What matters is a) the shooters did not and could not have known that at the time, and b) even if they had known, the guy wasn't actually attacking them with the weapons at the time he was shot. If shooting someone who happens to be armed (even though they're not attacking you) was valid in the eyes of the law, I imagine quite a lot of you would re-think your position on carrying concealed weapons.

    You may wish the law operated differently. I'm sure many people would agree with you (although not me). Nevertheless, under the law as it stands, and based on the information we actually have, these guys committed murder.
    So I guess you answered my question: yes, the rest of us have to just sit there and let ourselves be robbed at knife point. Or gun point. Who knows..?

    You've just put the criminals in the drivers seat. God help us all.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    What's appropriate when three thugs are running towards you? A gun isn't appropriate?

    And if you have a gun and the three thugs charging at you don't show their guns, how are you to know whether or not to defend yourself?

    Know Fung Fu?
    Brandishing the gun is completely appropriate. Actually using the gun when you're not being threatened is murder. If three threatening looking guys are charging at you full bore, you point your gun at them and tell them to stop, they refuse to do so (and depending on which state you live in, you can't run away, and/or they've broken into your home), you're probably within your rights to shoot them. I say "probably" because you haven't said whether or not they're visibly armed.

    You are aware that the hypothetical you're giving me bears very little relationship to the facts of this case, right?

    (As a side note, while I don't know Kung Fu, I did study Judo for about a decade and used to fight competitively in tournaments. I don't think I could take three guys, though.)

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Why do you value a criminal's life more than a business owner or home owner's life?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    So I guess you answered my question: yes, the rest of us have to just sit there and let ourselves be robbed at knife point. Or gun point. Who knows..?
    Not really, no. All I've said is that you cannot use deadly force absent sufficient justification for doing so. If someone attempts to rob you at knife point or gun point you probably can go ahead and shoot them. That's not what happened here.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Why do you value a criminal's life more than a business owner or home owner's life?
    Three things:

    1) Everyone involved in this case is a criminal.

    2) I don't value either life more than the other.

    3) The only people in this case who actually demonstrated a desire to take a human life were the business owners. The trespassers may or may not have been interested in threatening someone at knifepoint. We have no way of knowing. The point is, they didn't actually attempt to do so. If they had attempted to do so, the storeowners might have been in a much more justifiable position to use deadly force.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    All I know is that if you break in to my property late at night and I don't know you, be prepared for any and all situations and ramifications.

    By the way, I don't ask if you are armed and I don't do warning shots. If I aim a gun, it's intended to neutralize the subject. Anyone who teaches otherwise should have privileges revoked. You never shoot to disarm, nor to wound. You shoot to kill. Period.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    sad when you have alleged lawyers defending drug addict criminals. no wonder the country is in the ****ter
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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