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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    So you agree that they had not attempted to threaten the lives of the three property owners? Good. Then, if you look to the relevant Colorado statute, you'll find that the property owners did not have a valid basis for use of deadly force.

    By the way, yes, they were just trespassers at that point. They hadn't yet stolen anything.
    and just as true... the property owners are not murderers because they haven't been convicted yet.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    OJ was acquitted too, then lost a wrongful death civil suit.
    The standards of proof for civil and criminal trials are different. Personally I think if a not guilty verdict has been reached in a criminal then any civil lawsuits should be banned, this basically double jeopardy.

    The Differences between a Criminal Case and a Civil Case - FindLaw
    The standard of proof is also very different in a criminal case versus a civil case. Crimes must generally be proved "beyond a reasonable doubt", whereas civil cases are proved by lower standards of proof such as "the preponderance of the evidence" (which essentially means that it was more likely than not that something occurred in a certain way). The difference in standards exists because civil liability is considered less blameworthy and because the punishments are less severe.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    and just as true... the property owners are not murderers because they haven't been convicted yet.
    Sorry, no.

    Not the same thing at all. The trespassers were trespassers rather than thieves because they hadn't performed an act necessary to the commission of any theft crime. By contrast, the murders are murders because they did commit all of the acts necessary to the crime of murder, and they didn't have a valid defense for doing so. If you'd like to talk about the relevance of the grand jury, feel free to do so, but first, please address my comments as to why doing so is ridiculous.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Sorry, no.

    Not the same thing at all. The trespassers were trespassers rather than thieves because they hadn't performed an act necessary to the commission of any theft crime. By contrast, the murders are murders because they did commit all of the acts necessary to the crime of murder, and they didn't have a valid defense for doing so. If you'd like to talk about the relevance of the grand jury, feel free to do so, but first, please address my comments as to why doing so is ridiculous.

    they were guilty of B&E, damage to property, etc. they had already committed several crimes. to call them "trespassers" is completely dishonest and shows what a weak arguement you have.

    rant all you want, matlock, you wanting these property owners to be murderers doesn't make it so.
    Last edited by OscarB63; 09-19-11 at 05:28 PM.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The standards of proof for civil and criminal trials are different. Personally I think if a not guilty verdict has been reached in a criminal then any civil lawsuits should be banned, this basically double jeopardy.

    The Differences between a Criminal Case and a Civil Case - FindLaw
    The standard of proof is also very different in a criminal case versus a civil case. Crimes must generally be proved "beyond a reasonable doubt", whereas civil cases are proved by lower standards of proof such as "the preponderance of the evidence" (which essentially means that it was more likely than not that something occurred in a certain way). The difference in standards exists because civil liability is considered less blameworthy and because the punishments are less severe.
    That was my point, and I tend to agree with you on the double jeopardy thing.

    The flip side, as it was explained to me, is that a conviction would guarantee a civil win if they were that related to each other. And sometimes people will agree that an event that doesn't rise to the criminal DOES rise to the civil. Maybe somebody doesn't deserve prison but should PAY something, in other words.

    Don't know enough about the case to comment on this one.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    they were guilty of B&E, damage to property, etc. they had already committed several crimes. to call them "trespassers" is completely dishonest and shows what a weak arguement you have.
    They were trespassers on the night in question. Wanting them to be burglars does not make it so. If you think I have a weak argument, why don't you address the alleged weaknesses of that argument? I keep asking you to do so, and you keep ignoring me. It's a little bit sad, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    rant all you want, matlock, you wanting these property owners to be murderers doesn't make it so.
    You're right, layperson. Desire has nothing to do with making these people murderers. Their acts, and the law make them murderers.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    They were trespassers on the night in question. Wanting them to be burglars does not make it so.
    who said they were burglars? I said they were guilty of B&E. or did they simply waltz onto the property through a wide open gate?

    You're right, layperson.
    oooooh, Mr. Lawyer gonna try to trump me wiff his sheepskin now. I'mma shakin in my boots. another sign of desperation. appeal to authority, especially your own.

    Desire has nothing to do with making these people murderers. Their acts, and the law make them murderers.
    glad you are finally agreeing with the grand jury who let them walk.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    oooooh, Mr. Lawyer gonna try to trump me wiff his sheepskin now. I'mma shakin in my boots. another sign of desperation. appeal to authority, especially your own.
    Actually, I was mocking you for continuing to refer to me as Matlock, which is childish. As is the above quoted section.


    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    glad you are finally agreeing with the grand jury who let them walk.
    Cute. Your ability to misread printed text while continuing to fail entirely to actually make an argument in support of your position is quite remarkable. Can you please actually address the facts and the law without continuing to appeal to authority (i.e. the grand jury)? This is getting very tiresome.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    The burglar...

    ...is the victim?
    Sadly, in this society, yes. The bleeding hearts rally to the defense low lives. Those poor, unfortunate drug addicts; those poor alcoholics. Those poor thieves! Meanwhile, the rest of us are supposed to just stand there are get robbed at knife point. It's silly bull ****. And I'm frankly tired of such a weakling mentality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    He wasn't being attacked when he fired the gun.
    Is it just me, or is this debate going in circles? It has already been established that the business owners couldn't have known what the intentions of the thief was. How was he to know his life wasn't endangered? Was he supposed to just sit there and wait to be stabbed or shot? I wouldn't be taking chances if it were me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    If you look at the statute for self defense it requires a reasonable belief that one is or is about to be attacked. We have no indication of such a thing here.
    Yes, there was. When they examined the body, it turns out he was correct. The guy was armed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Moreover, valid use of lethal force in defense of self/others requires both that one is being attacked with lethal force (or impending threat of great bodily harm) and a reasonable belief that lesser force would be insufficient to end the threat. None of these criteria were met under the facts of this case as we know them. Therefore there was no self defense. Case closed.
    I guess you think that three knives do not pose a lethal threat? As I have already said, how was he supposed to know one way or the other?
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post

    Is it just me, or is this debate going in circles? It has already been established that the business owners couldn't have known what the intentions of the thief was. How was he to know his life wasn't endangered? Was he supposed to just sit there and wait to be stabbed or shot? I wouldn't be taking chances if it were me.
    Yes, this debate is going around in circles. To answer your other questions, it is precisely because the shooters couldn't have - and didn't - know what the intentions of the would-be thief were, or whether or not their lives were in danger that they (the shooters) do not have a valid defense of self defense. Look at the statute. It requires that someone be under the reasonable belief of impending death or great bodily harm. This requires a showing of more than just "they might have wanted to attack, maybe." It requires a showing of an actual physical assault likely to lead to death or great bodily harm. No one has said that such a thing happened. If you don't believe me that this is the standard, look up the case law yourself. You'll find that I'm right.

    Moreover, in the eyes of the law it is irrelevant that the murder victim was armed. What matters is a) the shooters did not and could not have known that at the time, and b) even if they had known, the guy wasn't actually attacking them with the weapons at the time he was shot. If shooting someone who happens to be armed (even though they're not attacking you) was valid in the eyes of the law, I imagine quite a lot of you would re-think your position on carrying concealed weapons.

    You may wish the law operated differently. I'm sure many people would agree with you (although not me). Nevertheless, under the law as it stands, and based on the information we actually have, these guys committed murder.

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