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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    Aderleth put forward relevant points of law and reason. Have you sufficiently legitimate counters to those points? If so, I believe putting them forward would be the appropriate sequence of events in a discussion of this sort. I do not believe the grand jury concerned made any pronouncements upon his opinion, nor do I believe a third party's opinion (however august) is the sole arbiter of this question.
    really? his opinion is that these property owners committed murder, the grand jury disagreed. ergo, his opinion is crap
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I've been over this many times with several different people on this thread. If you browse it, you'll find that I have explained - repeatedly - why focusing on the grand jury decision is a nonsense argument with respect to this case. I'm also amused that you bolded the word "opinion" as if that's a substitute for making an actual argument as to why the law as it stands and the facts as we know them do not support the conclusion that these guys committed murder. So I'm going to ask you to do the same thing that I've asked several people on this thread:

    Please explain to me using the law and the facts why you think these guys did not commit murder. My guess is that you'll dodge the question. Everyone else has.
    face it, matlock, your opinion is that these guys committed murder. the grand jury disagreed. accept it.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    face it, matlock, your opinion is that these guys committed murder. the grand jury disagreed. accept it.
    Yup. Dodged the question. Thanks for bringing so much insight to the table.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Yup. Dodged the question. Thanks for bringing so much insight to the table.
    what question? irrelevent crap.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    what question? irrelevent crap.
    I'm going to say this to you one last time, then I'm done with you unless you actually make a real argument. Further posturing and references to the Grand Jury will be met by silence (on this thread) and laughter (by me, sitting at my computer). Here's the question:

    Can you explain to me, using the facts as we know them, and the relevant statutes in the jurisdiction (i.e. the relevant provisions of the Colorado penal code, which I've posted on this thread), why you think these guys did not commit murder?

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    The first two questions are largely irrelevant to this thread, and I can prove the third one:

    Murder, as has been established on this thread, is the intentional killing of another human being without a valid defense for doing so. Therefore we have to ask two questions:

    1 - Did anyone intentionally kill another human being?

    2 - If so, did they have a legally valid defense for doing so?

    Here're my answers:

    1 - Obviously someone intentionally killed another human being. We know this because it says so in the article, and because not even the perpetrators seem to claim otherwise. So this issue is fairly straightforward.

    2 - No, they did not have a legally valid defense. There are several valid defenses to murder. The only ones that matter in this context are defense of self/other and defense of property. Since the two thieves were not visibly armed, and were not making any attempts to attack the three guys who shot at them, defense of self/other is pretty much out the window as a valid defense in the eyes of the law. If you'd like to argue that the two thieves were inherently a threat justifying lethal force, feel free to do so, but understand that the law as it stands does not take that position. Check the various statutes I've posted in this thread for verification. The only potential defense left is defense of property, and that's not a legitimate defense under Colorado law. I've provided the relevant statute on this point, and it also says so in the article.

    Q.E.D. Thank you for playing.
    All I see here is self defense. He intentionally defended himself. Case closed.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    The burglar...

    ...is the victim?

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    All I see here is self defense. He intentionally defended himself. Case closed.
    He wasn't being attacked when he fired the gun. If you look at the statute for self defense it requires a reasonable belief that one is or is about to be attacked. We have no indication of such a thing here. Moreover, valid use of lethal force in defense of self/others requires both that one is being attacked with lethal force (or impending threat of great bodily harm) and a reasonable belief that lesser force would be insufficient to end the threat. None of these criteria were met under the facts of this case as we know them. Therefore there was no self defense. Case closed.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I'm going to say this to you one last time, then I'm done with you unless you actually make a real argument. Further posturing and references to the Grand Jury will be met by silence (on this thread) and laughter (by me, sitting at my computer).
    yeah right, perry mason, you've been saying the same thing for the last 70 pages.

    Here's the question:

    Can you explain to me, using the facts as we know them, and the relevant statutes in the jurisdiction (i.e. the relevant provisions of the Colorado penal code, which I've posted on this thread), why you think these guys did not commit murder?

    bolded is the key. we don't know all the facts. therefore you have made various assumptions. all of which have painted the property owners in the worst possible light.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Wake View Post
    The burglar...

    ...is the victim?
    yes. he was victimized when he forced his way onto their property in the middle of the night, armed with 3 knives and intending to commit criminal actions. apparently, some people here don't think stupid people should have to face the consequences of their stupid actions.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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