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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

  1. #921
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo View Post
    That is so, but his status as an adult is not of any significance to this discussion.
    I agree with that.However some of the scumbag sympathizers out there are arguing that he was a kid that shot by mean ol vigilantes.

    He was a young man, and to some older people he may be regarded as a 'kid'. I am only two years younger than him, and despite being legally an adult, I am regarded as and treated as a kid by many people.
    I am sure that to some elderly people out there I am a kid. However the only reason for calling a dead scumbag a kid in this thread is to fraudulently imply that he was somehow a child or a minor.


    Not so, he was shot while trying to hide from men who were chasing him with guns.
    You do not know why he was hiding.He could have been reaching for a weapon or trying to ambush them. You don't.


    That depends upon the jurisdiction, but in most jurisdictions, you may only use lethal force in cases of genuine self defence (where your or someone else's life is in danger), not in the potential defence of property. The burglar was not shot in the commission of a crime, he was shot while attempting to evade his pursuers.
    The burglar was trespassing and trying to burglarize the place. You do not know for sure if he was trying to flee.


    It does in most jurisdictions.
    Do you have any links that property owner may not arm themselves and be ready in the event their property is burglarized?


    It may not be vigilantism, but it is certainly an illegal act if no explicit or implicit threat is present.
    The US is not some Eurotrash country that sympathizes with criminals. So it is legal here in the US to shoot a burglar.


    Ask Tony Martin, the Norfolk farmer, who was initially sentenced to life imprisonment for shooting a burglar who was attempting to flee his property.
    I am surprised it is not illegal in your country for rape victims to defend themselves.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  2. #922
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Lots of bleeding hearts living in fairy land. I would be curious to see their reactions during a home invasion.
    “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.” -Napoleon

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by evanescence View Post
    Lots of bleeding hearts living in fairy land. I would be curious to see their reactions during a home invasion.
    piss themselves, beg for their lives and, if they survived, sue the police for not getting their within 10 seconds.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    piss themselves, beg for their lives and, if they survived, sue the police for not getting their within 10 seconds.
    lol that's probably fairly accurate.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    If this happened in El Paso Texas I think the jury would have had the sense to tell the dead armed burglar junky's family to **** off.
    Yes, I lived there for a few years and then in Alamagordo, NM. You are 100% correct on that, it would never have made it in front of a jury.

    edited because I forgot to punctuate
    I love how, in scary movies, the person yells out, "Hello?" As if the bad guy is gonna be like, "Yeah, I'm in the kitchen! Want a sandwich?"

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I agree with that.However some of the scumbag sympathizers out there are arguing that he was a kid that shot by mean ol vigilantes.

    I am sure that to some elderly people out there I am a kid. However the only reason for calling a dead scumbag a kid in this thread is to fraudulently imply that he was somehow a child or a minor.
    I take your point James, and it is obvious that he was not a minor. I merely pointed out that many people, and not particularly elderly ones, still regard me as a kid, despite the fact that I turned 18 recently. He was only two years older, so perhaps to some people - he was a kid. Those people are not scumbags for having some sympathy with his death.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You do not know why he was hiding.He could have been reaching for a weapon or trying to ambush them. You don't.
    No one can get into someone else's mind, and divine their intentions, so we must be guided by the balance of probability. He was being chased by men with guns, and he ran into a shed. The balance of probability is that he was seeking shelter, and to hide from these men. Of course, he could have had military weapons cached there, perhaps an RPG. But given that this was on private property to which he had heretofore little access, that is not the balance of probability. So we are left with the most likely circumstance that he was afraid for his life and was hiding. With good reason, as it rurned out.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The burglar was trespassing and trying to burglarize the place. You do not know for sure if he was trying to flee.
    It is fact that initially, he was trespassing, and it would be a reasonable assumption that he intended to steal something. However, the facts as reported, indicate that he was being confronted by three armed men, his partner in crime fled over the fence, and he ran to a nearby shed. All the circumstances, and common sense, point to his attempting to remove himself from immediate danger as quickly as possible. This could reasonably be regarded as attempting to flee.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Do you have any links that property owner may not arm themselves and be ready in the event their property is burglarized?
    That depends upon the jurisdiction. In the UK, Norfolk farmer Tony Martin was initially sentenced to life imprisonment for doing exactly that - lying in wait for burglars, and then shooting one of them dead.

    The Conservatives have made attempts to change the law to allow things like that, but have been unsuccessful so far. The self-defence law does not need unreasonable changes | Issy McCann | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    The US is not some Eurotrash country that sympathizes with criminals. So it is legal here in the US to shoot a burglar.

    I am surprised it is not illegal in your country for rape victims to defend themselves.
    Your ad hominems towards all Europeans do you little credit, and do not enhance your case. I should avoid that tactic if I were you. Debate the facts, as reported, of this issue, and people may have more regard for what you have to say.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by O_Guru View Post
    I challenge anybody to prove the following fallacies.

    he was a kid
    he was hiding
    he was murdered

    can anybody prove these 3 fallacies to be true?
    The first two questions are largely irrelevant to this thread, and I can prove the third one:

    Murder, as has been established on this thread, is the intentional killing of another human being without a valid defense for doing so. Therefore we have to ask two questions:

    1 - Did anyone intentionally kill another human being?

    2 - If so, did they have a legally valid defense for doing so?

    Here're my answers:

    1 - Obviously someone intentionally killed another human being. We know this because it says so in the article, and because not even the perpetrators seem to claim otherwise. So this issue is fairly straightforward.

    2 - No, they did not have a legally valid defense. There are several valid defenses to murder. The only ones that matter in this context are defense of self/other and defense of property. Since the two thieves were not visibly armed, and were not making any attempts to attack the three guys who shot at them, defense of self/other is pretty much out the window as a valid defense in the eyes of the law. If you'd like to argue that the two thieves were inherently a threat justifying lethal force, feel free to do so, but understand that the law as it stands does not take that position. Check the various statutes I've posted in this thread for verification. The only potential defense left is defense of property, and that's not a legitimate defense under Colorado law. I've provided the relevant statute on this point, and it also says so in the article.

    Q.E.D. Thank you for playing.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    2 - No, they did not have a legally valid defense. There are several valid defenses to murder. The only ones that matter in this context are defense of self/other and defense of property. Since the two thieves were not visibly armed, and were not making any attempts to attack the three guys who shot at them, defense of self/other is pretty much out the window as a valid defense in the eyes of the law. If you'd like to argue that the two thieves were inherently a threat justifying lethal force, feel free to do so, but understand that the law as it stands does not take that position. Check the various statutes I've posted in this thread for verification. The only potential defense left is defense of property, and that's not a legitimate defense under Colorado law. I've provided the relevant statute on this point, and it also says so in the article.

    Q.E.D. Thank you for playing.
    fortunately for these valiant property owners, the grand jury in their case thought your OPINION is crap. thanks for playing
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    fortunately for these valiant property owners, the grand jury in their case thought your OPINION is crap. thanks for playing
    Aderleth put forward relevant points of law and reason. Have you sufficiently legitimate counters to those points? If so, I believe putting them forward would be the appropriate sequence of events in a discussion of this sort. I do not believe the grand jury concerned made any pronouncements upon his opinion, nor do I believe a third party's opinion (however august) is the sole arbiter of this question.
    I hate the idea of causes, and if I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country. E.M. Forster

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    fortunately for these valiant property owners, the grand jury in their case thought your OPINION is crap. thanks for playing
    I've been over this many times with several different people on this thread. If you browse it, you'll find that I have explained - repeatedly - why focusing on the grand jury decision is a nonsense argument with respect to this case. I'm also amused that you bolded the word "opinion" as if that's a substitute for making an actual argument as to why the law as it stands and the facts as we know them do not support the conclusion that these guys committed murder. So I'm going to ask you to do the same thing that I've asked several people on this thread:

    Please explain to me using the law and the facts why you think these guys did not commit murder. My guess is that you'll dodge the question. Everyone else has.

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