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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

  1. #641
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's not more coercive than putting a criminal in prison. The perpetrator of a tort or a crime has given up their rights. You need to get past your superficial understanding of libertarianism and think deeply on the subject.
    It takes no government force to put and keep people in jail? Left to their own, criminals would stay in prison? Or in reality, does it require outside force? Come on, be honest for once.

    Again, your Madam Cleo sucks, you know not what I know or what I have studied in understanding my personal political philosophies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Stop betraying libertarian principles and I will stop calling you out on it. Also, if you knew anyone with special needs, you might choose your language a bit more carefully. Grow up.
    So you were engaged in the retarded mantra of "you're not a real libertarian". K, well if that's the level you're arguing at, you may perchance want to heed your own "grow up" advice".

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    If they hadn't committed the tort, they wouldn't have had to answer for it.
    That doesn't answer the question. How is it enforced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Its enforce by government, but it isn't coercive. At least, not illegitimately so; the tortfeasor has given up their rights when they committed the tort. The jury is the mechanism that determines facts. This is our legal system. Cope.
    I'm not arguing against the system we have in place, I merely recognize government force where government force is.

    co·erce
       [koh-urs] Show IPA
    verb (used with object), -erced, -erc·ing.
    1.
    to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, especially without regard for individual desire or volition: They coerced him into signing the document.
    2.
    to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.
    3.
    to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.

    That's the definition of coercive. If you claim something is not coercive, you are claiming that in the natural state free from force they would have carried out the action. But it requires force, government force in this case, i.e. coercion to ensure that the system is upheld and punishment rightfully paid in a proper time frame. That's a force. There are not many things in this world which are free from force.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You hypothetical has no basis in reality.
    It's a hypothetical. But can you answer it. How about 1000 in real damages giving a 280,000 reward; is that a bit more reasonable? Can you now answer the question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The cards don't lie. You have demonstrated that you simply haven't got an adequate command of tort law concepts to discuss it intelligently. And yet you want to dictate how tort law should work
    No, I have merely demonstrated that I have a different opinion on the rationality and reason of the current court system than you. From there you have launched into attacks calling me stupid on the subject and questioning my political beliefs and values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The fact that the judge can reduce unreasonable punitive awards is the safeguard against your Chicken Little fears of juries running amok. No need to take broad, legislative action like you're advocating.
    OK Cleo. Care to point out where I endorsed legislative action? I actually really want you to do this. You've run your mouth, said what it is I believe and what I want. So now it's time to back it up. Can you? Or is this just another one of your assumptions run amuck?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The market realized that they couldn't get away with half-assing their coffee lids because they would be held liable for the harm that results from said halfassed lids. That's the market, coupled with a healthy dose of personal responsibility, at work.
    So it's not a market correction then is it? No, it needed intervention from the courts in this case to take care of it. Not necessarily a bad thing; never said it was. I said it wasn't a market correction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Lordamercy. You clearly don't understand the role of the legal system if you think emotion shouldn't play a part.
    It shouldn't. All that is at stake is the rights and liberties of the individual and those must be weighed cold and logically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Emotion is a huge part of justice.
    Not justice. Justice is a theory of interactions between government or authority and the people on the whole to produce desired effects agreed upon by the populace at large.

    Theory of Justice, fundamental libertarian reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    This isn't planet Vulcan. It's not all logic and reason. Juries are finders of fact in our system, and a thousand years of common law tradition have validated their important counterbalance to the cold, dispassionate logic of the judge. The jury is there precisely to be what they are.
    The jury is there to weigh evidence and come to conclusions. Emotional reaction distracts from logical thought and can lead to false conclusions and outrageous awards which later must go to the "cold, dispassionate logic of the judge" to be set right. Correct? That's how it happened here with McDonald's yes?

    I in fact never stated that McDonald's was in the clear, nor that I would have absolved them of wrong doing. I merely stated that the initial award was unjustifiable and based off of emotional reaction from the jury.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #642
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You say that based on what? Reading a news article about the case? How many degrees removed from the facts of the case are you?

    The fact is that nobody is better equipped to decide these things than the jury who hears the case. Certainly not somebody who is unfamiliar with the facts.

    A libertarian should be embracing tort law, not opposing it. Torts are the very definition of personal accountability. It's only when the government comes in and starts to monkey with a thousand years of common law that things become problematic and ultimately unjust.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    ...and my point was that it's possible for someone who is more intelligent to make better conclusions with fewer facts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    It may be possible, but it's not likely in a legal context, and it's a far cry from certain. At the very least one should be extremely wary of doing such a thing. Anything else is just arrogance and presumption.
    Catch the quantifiers in my post and Guy's. The two most important quantifiers in mathematics are "for all" and "there exists". Notice in Guy's post that he is stating that the jury is always the best to decide the case because they heard the most testimony/evidence. Aderleth, you seem to agree when I said it's possible for someone with fewer facts to make better conclusions. Thus, you are agreeing that what Guy stated is incorrect.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  3. #643
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Catch the quantifiers in my post and Guy's. The two most important quantifiers in mathematics are "for all" and "there exists". Notice in Guy's post that he is stating that the jury is always the best to decide the case because they heard the most testimony/evidence. Aderleth, you seem to agree when I said it's possible for someone with fewer facts to make better conclusions. Thus, you are agreeing that what Guy stated is incorrect.
    I'm waiting for him to point out where I endorsed a legislative solution. There was a lot of mouth running on his part, calling me not a libertarian. Now I want him to back it up. But poof...he disappeared. Maybe he's a ghost.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #644
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Catch the quantifiers in my post and Guy's. The two most important quantifiers in mathematics are "for all" and "there exists". Notice in Guy's post that he is stating that the jury is always the best to decide the case because they heard the most testimony/evidence. Aderleth, you seem to agree when I said it's possible for someone with fewer facts to make better conclusions. Thus, you are agreeing that what Guy stated is incorrect.
    Sure it's possible. I also pointed out that it's wildly improbable. So while Guy's statement may be technically incorrect (or, better put, a slight overstatement) yours is largely useless.

  5. #645
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Sure it's possible. I also pointed out that it's wildly improbable. So while Guy's statement may be technically incorrect (or, better put, a slight overstatement) yours is largely useless.
    I don't think you appreciate the difference between never and improbable. In fact, your buddy AdamT was just arguing with Ikari about this difference being significant. Ikari pointed out that, based on statistics, it's wildly improbable that your McDonald's Coffee is hot enough to severely burn you. AdamT says that even though this probability is approximately 0.0, the fact that it's not is a big deal.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  6. #646
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    I don't think you appreciate the difference between never and improbable. In fact, your buddy AdamT was just arguing with Ikari about this difference being significant. Ikari pointed out that, based on statistics, it's wildly improbable that your McDonald's Coffee is hot enough to severely burn you. AdamT says that even though this probability is approximately 0.0, the fact that it's not is a big deal.
    That seems like a strange contention given that I specifically drew a distinction between impossible and improbable, but by all means, believe whatever feeds your ego.

  7. #647
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Sure it's possible. I also pointed out that it's wildly improbable. So while Guy's statement may be technically incorrect (or, better put, a slight overstatement) yours is largely useless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    That seems like a strange contention given that I specifically drew a distinction between impossible and improbable, but by all means, believe whatever feeds your ego.
    ...and you explicitly stated that the difference is useless.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  8. #648
    I'm kind of a big deal

    AGENT J's Avatar
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Three men armed with guns, against one man hiding in a shed. Yeah. Hilarious.
    yep just as funny as the methhead I saw just the other day try to fight FIVE POLICE OFFICERS while being tazered and was still swinging a pipe at them???

    hmm go figure

    like i said some live in the REAL world and some live in fantasy land.

    hilarious INDEED that you think you know it all and can make decisions for all


    and please stop saying he was hiding its just a guess on your part and nothing more
    Last edited by AGENT J; 08-30-11 at 10:56 PM.
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  9. #649
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    ...and you explicitly stated that the difference is useless.
    From a legal standpoint it is.

  10. #650
    I'm kind of a big deal

    AGENT J's Avatar
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by mtlhdtodd View Post
    Game set and match. Bravo sir
    thank you
    thank you
    thank you
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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