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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They were looking for this specific guy? ****, why didn't you tell the police that the whole thing was a set up to lure this specific individual to their lot so they could kill him! Holy crap. Oh...wait, they were looking for the guy who kept breaking into their business and stealing their stuff....not some random drug addict on the street.
    They were looking to shoot the next intruder on their property, whoever that happened to be. We have no way of knowing if these two particular intruders were the same people who had previously stolen from the property owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Guess the cops should have done something. Oh well...whenever you need a cop; they're 10 minutes away.
    This statement has nothing to do with the reason I brought up the cops, which was to point out that the three guys stated in advance, to the police, their intent to use deadly force on an as yet unidentified individual or group of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Wrong. It is the fundamental basis for rights. It should be understood by those living in a democratic republic built upon the protection and proliferation of an individual's rights.
    Once again, I'm talking about what the law actually says, and you're talking about nonsense. I've provided the statutory language on self defense (a few pages back). It's consistent with my assertions, and totally inconsistent with yours.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well the Grand Jury didn't indict.
    And as I've explained three or four times now (once specifically to you, I think) this doesn't mean as much as you might think it does given that a) the civil jury did convict using the same standard of evidence, and b) the facts as we know them support a murder conviction.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    More like "too bad". I have always felt the rightful place for libertarians were in the courts as they have a better understanding the basic limitations of the courts and the proper power of the People to police and control the authority of the government. There are others sympathetic to the rightful power of the jury to nullify unjust law.
    Well, it's an interesting perspective. No doubt you oppose judicial activism, which is a judge or judges substituting their preferences for those of the elected legislature, but you seem to support jury activism, or a group of nine untrained people elected by no one substituting their preferences for thsoe of the elected legislature.

    Seems rather inconsistent to me.
    Last edited by AdamT; 08-30-11 at 06:01 PM.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    guy decides to get high on meth
    guy decides to arm himself with 3 knives
    guy decides to break onto another person's property


    and he is the victim


    guy decides to shoot the high, armed criminal and he is a murderer


    mind boggling
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    They were looking to shoot the next intruder on their property, whoever that happened to be. We have no way of knowing if these two particular intruders were the same people who had previously stolen from the property owners.
    So they weren't looking for these specific individuals then? That's what I thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    This statement has nothing to do with the reason I brought up the cops, which was to point out that the three guys stated in advance, to the police, their intent to use deadly force on an as yet unidentified individual or group of people.
    It doesn't matter why you brought it up, you brought it up. If the cops thought they were going to do something illegal, particularly murder, they have the ability to STOP IT. They should have done something if they really thought that these guys were going to break the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Once again, I'm talking about what the law actually says, and you're talking about nonsense. I've provided the statutory language on self defense (a few pages back). It's consistent with my assertions, and totally inconsistent with yours.
    And I gave you the FUNDAMENTAL PHILOSOPHY by which our Republic was constructed. The protection and proliferation of our rights. We even have the right to overthrow the government should it tread too grievously against our rights for too long. The thiefs initiated aggression when they violated the rights of the property owners. The property owners responded. There is still room for talking rightful defense or over the line murder; but it does not distract from the fact that the initiators of the conflict where the ones who initially infringed on rights.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    And as I've explained three or four times now (once specifically to you, I think) this doesn't mean as much as you might think it does given that a) the civil jury did convict using the same standard of evidence, and b) the facts as we know them support a murder conviction.
    And the facts as the Grand Jury knew them did not support indictment.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT
    Well, it's an interesting perspective. No doubt you oppose judicial activism, which is a judge or judges substituting their preferences for those of the elected legislature, but you seem to support jury activision, or a group of nine untrained people elected by no one substituting their preferences for thsoe of the elected legislature.

    Seems rather inconsistent to me.
    I support neither. I would just want a system that tends to, you know, punish criminals. Like knife-brandishing druggies who break onto private property at night to commit felonies.

    In a perfect world, the existence and enforcement of private property rights would be tantamount to a sound legal structure, specifically in cases where available parties all consent and no third-party interference can and will be tolerated.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well, it's an interesting perspective. No doubt you oppose judicial activism, which is a judge or judges substituting their preferences for those of the elected legislature, but you seem to support jury activism, or a group of nine untrained people elected by no one substituting their preferences for thsoe of the elected legislature.

    Seems rather inconsistent to me.
    Judges are part of the government and as such are subject to the limitations placed upon the government by the People. The jury is the People, the representation of our will and desire. They have all the INNATE power. All power wielded by the government is derived from the People. The People have the proper right and duty to restrict and control the government and its authority including the force it wields over us.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Ok, I'm no lawyer. I didn't go to law school, and all my law classes were business law. Having said that, I was told ad nauseum (yeah, I had to know some Latin) that you're not found guilty or not guilty in civil court, you're found liable or not liable. I was also informed that it's not so much that you're found liable, but how much you're found liable, and punitive reparations are made based on that (often based on percentage).
    The guilt phase and the penalty phase are two different things. Punitive damages are only sometimes involved, and there are many civil remedies (e.g. affirmative and negative injunctions) that don't involve money at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    If that's right, it also makes for a screwed-up civil litigation basis. After all you can always put a tiny bit on anyone. In theory, McDonalds could've been partially liable for that woman spilling hot coffee all over herself because they gave it to her when she paid for it.
    If you look at the legal analysis in this case, it actually makes more sense than you'd think, but that's a much longer (and off-topic) conversation than I'm willing to have at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Therefore, all you have to do is find a liberal lawyer adept at spinning tales of woe about how this poor druggie's daughter will never grow up knowing exactly what a dead-beat daddy really was, and that the big, bad entrepreneurs were all to blame. Then you surgically remove the wallet.

    Any addendums or alternations you want to make?
    Yes. The biggest one is this: The prosecutor at the grand jury hearing could have just as easily tugged at the heart strings of his jury (they all do this - every trial lawyer does), and that jury didn't have the benefit of also hearing from a defense attorney.

    Put simply, the circumstances in the grand jury were more favorable to the prosecution who had access to exactly the same bag of tricks available to a plaintiff's lawyer, and there was no indictment.

    By contrast, the civil jury heard evidence from the plaintiff (who is no more or less capable of manipulating a jury than is a prosecutor) and also heard evidence from the defendant's side of the story. Therefore in circumstances most favorable to them (the defendants) they lost, but in the circumstances least favorable to the defendants, they won. This does not make any sense.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Judges are part of the government and as such are subject to the limitations placed upon the government by the People. The jury is the People, the representation of our will and desire. They have all the INNATE power. All power wielded by the government is derived from the People. The People have the proper right and duty to restrict and control the government and its authority including the force it wields over us.
    A jury isn't THE people -- it is nine *particular* people. If every group of nine particular people thinks it's okay to make up the law as it goes along, we've got a real problem.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    It's a strange world where some of the citizens of the "Land of the Free" think that death is a reasonable punishment for attempted petty theft of a car stereo.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So they weren't looking for these specific individuals then? That's what I thought.
    They were looking to shoot someone. This speaks to intent, and undermines any possible self defense or defense of property argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It doesn't matter why you brought it up, you brought it up. If the cops thought they were going to do something illegal, particularly murder, they have the ability to STOP IT. They should have done something if they really thought that these guys were going to break the law.
    It does matter why I brought it up, because I brought it up to indicate intent. See above for why that's important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And I gave you the FUNDAMENTAL PHILOSOPHY by which our Republic was constructed. The protection and proliferation of our rights. We even have the right to overthrow the government should it tread too grievously against our rights for too long. The thiefs initiated aggression when they violated the rights of the property owners. The property owners responded. There is still room for talking rightful defense or over the line murder; but it does not distract from the fact that the initiators of the conflict where the ones who initially infringed on rights.
    Not in the eyes of the law. Which is why the rest of your philosophical argument is entirely meaningless in this context.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And the facts as the Grand Jury knew them did not support indictment.
    And yet strangely, in circumstances more favorable to the defendants (and using the same standard of proof), another jury did find that they unlawfully and intentionally shot and killed someone without a valid defense.
    Last edited by Aderleth; 08-30-11 at 06:12 PM.

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