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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Laws are passed in our democracy. A group of nine people don't get to pick and choose which laws they like and which laws they don't like.
    then sue them...mr matlock
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Laws are passed in our democracy. A group of nine people don't get to pick and choose which laws they like and which laws they don't like.
    Yes. yes they do. It was acknowledge, encouraged, and used in our history.

    John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court stated in 1789: "The jury has the right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy." Samuel Chase, U. S. Supreme Court Justice and signer of the Declaration of Independence, said in 1796: "The jury has the right to determine both the law and the facts. " U. S. Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said in 1902: "The jury has the power to bring a verdict in the teeth of both law and fact." Harlan F. Stone, the 12th Chief Justice of the U. S. Supreme Court, stated in 1941: "The law itself is on trial quite as much as the cause which is to be decided."
    Last edited by Ikari; 08-30-11 at 05:42 PM.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth
    There was no court, and no acquittal. There was a grand jury proceeding (which is emphatically not a trial) at which the grand jury chose not to indict. I'm going to say this one more time:

    The grand jury result and the civil jury result - which used the same standard of evidence - reached inconsistent conclusions. And the grand jury was not exposed to the defendant's side of the story. This means that the civil jury chose to find the defendants guilty based on having information more favorable to the defendants, whereas the grand jury chose not to indict based solely on the information most favorable to the prosecution. This doesn't make any sense, and it suggests that either the prosecutor at the grand jury screwed up, or that jury refused to apply the law to the facts, as is their duty.
    Ok lawyers, so help me out - they were put before a grand jury, the defendants chose to keep quiet and not self-incriminate (as per the Bill of Rights, about halfway down somewhere), and just by looking at strict physical evidence the GJ concluded that there was no way in hell the prosecution could get a conviction in a trial. Is that about it? Or do they often fail to indict cases that have a legal leg to stand on?

    I'm listening. Go Wapner on me.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    well, let's see. the prosecutor didn't file charges, instead he bailed and sent it to the grand jury. i'm guessing this was a political hot potato, colorado springs and all. he shirked HIS duty, i was giving him the benefit of the doubt in saying maybe he felt he couldn't win the case.

    it's abundantly clear by the police report that these men planned this murder. they even hid the gun from the police, or did you not see that? they shot a man throught a clodes shed door, they TOLD the police they were going to shoot intruders. did you READ the article or are you just blindly defending a man who AMBUSHED and killed another man?

    Milanovic and his father told police a week before the shooting they would shoot any intruders who returned. Police say the men concealed the rifle in the trunk of a car so well that a police detective initially missed it during a search.
    Read more: Jury sides with burglar's family in 2009 shooting death at auto lot | jury, burglar, lot - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO
    Last edited by liblady; 08-30-11 at 05:42 PM.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Violation of rights requires force. Theft of property is violation of rights, it requires a force to accomplish. That force was FIRST levied and the reaction was then the shooting. Whether or not you think the shooting was right or wrong, if you're going to be honest you must recognize whom the original aggressor was. The three men were not looking for this guy, they were not patrolling the streets, trying to find his home. The responded to an action taken against their rights. We can argue whether or not the response was within the law as written or even "right"'; but it DOES NOT CHANGE THE ORDER OF EVENTS.
    First of all, yes, they very probably were looking for this guy. They apparently told the cops that they intended to shoot the next intruder on their property, then they did exactly that. Second, your force argument is legally meaningless for self defense purposes. If you want to get the law changed so it reflects that definition, run for legislative office and get that bill passed. As things stand, to invoke self-defense in a situation in which you've used deadly force, you first have to be in imminent fear of death or great bodily harm. That's not at all what happened in this situation.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    civil juries don't determine whether or not a crime occurred. you would think a lawyer would know that.
    Actually in this case they did. In order to find fault they had to determine that the defendants were not acting in self defense.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    in fact, they ambushed the burglars.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady
    Milanovic and his father told police a week before the shooting they would shoot any intruders who returned. Police say the men concealed the rifle in the trunk of a car so well that a police detective initially missed it during a search.
    So were they searching his car before this incident, or after the fact? One means that they owned a weapon on their own property obviously so well-hidden that it couldn't be used even if they wanted to...or their Fourth Amendment rights were being grossly violated.

    What's it gonna be, sweetheart? Pick one.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Ok lawyers, so help me out - they were put before a grand jury, the defendants chose to keep quiet and not self-incriminate (as per the Bill of Rights, about halfway down somewhere), and just by looking at strict physical evidence the GJ concluded that there was no way in hell the prosecution could get a conviction in a trial. Is that about it?
    No. The defendant and his lawyers are not present at all during a grand jury. It's just the prosecutor and a room full of jurors. No judge, even (usually). It's just the prosecution's evidence, none of the defense side, and based on the preponderance of the evidence standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Or do they often fail to indict cases that have a legal leg to stand on?
    That is an excellent question, and it's the crux of what I was getting at in my last post to you. Because remember, the civil jury actually did find these guys guilty of exactly the same behavior, and that jury heard both the prosecution evidence (actually plaintiff's evidence, because it's a civil trial), and the defense version of events. Put simply:

    - The civil trial had evidence in favor of the defendants, and found them guilty
    - The grand jury just heard the evidence most favorable to the prosecution, and never heard the defendant's side of things at all. No indictment.

    Both used the same standard of proof. So how, exactly, does that make any sense? Can we square these two conclusions? No we cannot.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    First of all, yes, they very probably were looking for this guy.
    They were looking for this specific guy? ****, why didn't you tell the police that the whole thing was a set up to lure this specific individual to their lot so they could kill him! Holy crap. Oh...wait, they were looking for the guy who kept breaking into their business and stealing their stuff....not some random drug addict on the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    They apparently told the cops that they intended to shoot the next intruder on their property, then they did exactly that.
    Guess the cops should have done something. Oh well...whenever you need a cop; they're 10 minutes away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Second, your force argument is legally meaningless for self defense purposes.
    Wrong. It is the fundamental basis for rights. It should be understood by those living in a democratic republic built upon the protection and proliferation of an individual's rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    If you want to get the law changed so it reflects that definition, run for legislative office and get that bill passed. As things stand, to invoke self-defense in a situation in which you've used deadly force, you first have to be in imminent fear of death or great bodily harm. That's not at all what happened in this situation.
    Well the Grand Jury didn't indict.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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