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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    LMAO nice try but you are still wrong if you are insisting that what they felt doesn't matter at all.
    It does not matter at all from the law's perspective.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It does not matter at all from the law's perspective.
    yes it does LMAO
    because it impacts the circumstances and law most certainly cares about that!
    and so would the jury IF there was even enough to send this to criminal court but there wasnt
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    yes it does LMAO
    because it impacts the circumstances and law most certainly cares about that!
    and so would the jury IF there was even enough to send this to criminal court but there wasnt
    No, it really doesn't. The case rested on the defense of self defense, which uses an objective, reasonable person test. It does not consider the subjective beliefs of the defendant. That's a matter of black letter law.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Actually, it's a petit jury, not a petite jury.
    No...I believe in this case all the sitting members were tiny...very very small. They were sequestered in a Barbie playhouse. IG Joe transported them to and from the courthouse in the Go Joe attack Humvee.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, it really doesn't. The case rested on the defense of self defense, which uses an objective, reasonable person test. It does not consider the subjective beliefs of the defendant. That's a matter of black letter law.
    and since they didn't go to trial..... they must have passed the reasonable person test that you don't like it doesn't change the facts
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT
    No, it really doesn't. The case rested on the defense of self defense, which uses an objective, reasonable person test. It does not consider the subjective beliefs of the defendant. That's a matter of black letter law.
    You think reasonable is an objective term? Seriously?

    Quit looking at this from a vacuum perspective. When you take into account all the variables - shroud of night, current drug abuse, concealed weapons, felony crime committed on private property - the definition of "reasonable" gets skewed.

    Seriously, all this does is show that the legal system needs an overhaul. Our forefathers knew better than this. Jefferson shot people at the White House for less.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    What law says this?
    The Colorado penal code. Here's the relevant section:

    "18-1-706 - Use of physical force in defense of property.
    A person is justified in using reasonable and appropriate physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he reasonably believes to be an attempt by the other person to commit theft, criminal mischief, or criminal tampering involving property, but he may use deadly physical force under these circumstances only in defense of himself or another as described in section 18-1-704." [emphasis added]

    It also says so in the article you posted.


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    That is your opinion that they had no reason to believe they under thread of deadly assault. You do not know what kind of threat a trespasser poses.
    Obviously not. But based on the facts available, there was no threat. "Threat" in this context, means an actual attempt to harm someone using deadly force. Here's the relevant section of the law:

    "(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
    (a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury"

    Do we have any indication, any at all, that the shooting victim was attacking, or was about to attack his shooters when he was shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I am pretty sure most victims of a lot burglaries make that decision to arm themselves because you do not know what kind of harm the intruder intends to do you. That intruder may not want to leave witnesses so he may shoot,stab or use some other method to kill you.That intruder may be horney and decide to rape you. That intruder may decided that he is going to just beat the hell out of you for fun.
    And if and when your hypothetical intruder actually attempts any of those things, you are within your rights to defend yourself with deadly force. But if he hasn't made such an attempt, and you still use deadly force, you are, under the eyes of the law (and sanity) the aggressor, and become a criminal yourself. See above for statutory verification.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    They are not murderers.What they did was not murder.If what they did was murder, they would have been charged with murder, went to trial and sentence upon a guilty conviction. Are you trying to say that the DA,or who ever is going to ignore a confession,physical evidence and a motive if what these men did was murder or even illegal?
    I have no idea what the DA did or didn't do. I am saying that the two juries reached inconsistent verdicts using the same standard of proof. And the one that found in favor of the plaintiff (the shooting victim) was exposed to more evidence in favor of the defendants.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, it really doesn't. The case rested on the defense of self defense, which uses an objective, reasonable person test. It does not consider the subjective beliefs of the defendant. That's a matter of black letter law.
    see the underlined
    that can be impacted by how the subjects felt
    OR by how the jury would feel those people felt
    Or by how the jury would feel in the same situation knowing how they felt
    or how the jury would feel an "objective reasonable person" would feel in said situation.

    bottom line like i said it absolutely matters it just isnt the END ALL to the decision but it matters.

    example if "I" used self defense because I was bed ridden after two knee surgeries so i FELT cornered and threatened because I cant "fight or flight" an intruder are you telling me my feelings about being trapped dont matter?

    well you would be wrong


    again

    it matters, it just isnt the ONLY factor
    Last edited by AGENT J; 08-30-11 at 04:52 PM.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, it really doesn't. The case rested on the defense of self defense, which uses an objective, reasonable person test. It does not consider the subjective beliefs of the defendant. That's a matter of black letter law.
    Do you think he's figured out yet that the two people he's arguing with about the law are both lawyers?

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    You think reasonable is an objective term? Seriously?

    Quit looking at this from a vacuum perspective. When you take into account all the variables - shroud of night, current drug abuse, concealed weapons, felony crime committed on private property - the definition of "reasonable" gets skewed.

    Seriously, all this does is show that the legal system needs an overhaul. Our forefathers knew better than this. Jefferson shot people at the White House for less.
    I'm just telling you what the law is. You don't have to like it. The law doesn't ask if these particular guys felt threatened (subjective test). What it asks is whether an average, typical person would have reasonably felt threatened under the circumstances (objective test).

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