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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well, I am a lawyer, and I have both tried cases to juries and sat on juries, so I think I'm pretty familiar with the standard. As I mentioned above, FYI, the standard for the grand jury is the same standard that the civil court applied when the civil jury returned a verdict against the defendants. Two juries -- two different outcomes. One difference is that there was a full trial in the civil court, where both sides could present evidence.


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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    This is ridiculous. The burglar didn't break into someone's home. He was on a used car lot, for crying out loud. He was trapped inside a shed. All these "what if he shot through the door, what if he came out with an axe" speculations don't mean ****. He didn't shoot through the door, he didn't run out with a weapon. He was trying to hide. The cops could have been called and the guy hauled off to prison. Instead he was executed, on a used car lot, for trying to break into one of the cars. Last I heard, that is not a capital crime.

    I think a lot of folks here are just trolling for lulz. There is no way executing the guy in cold blood was warranted, and some of these posts would be chilling if they weren't just contrived bullcrap designed for ****s and giggles.

    bolded: how did they know what he was doing?
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    One way we know is from the police report:

    Police said in a 145-page investigative report that the intruder had knives in his pockets and one strapped to his ankle, but never posed a threat to Milanovic or the other men

    Read more: Jury sides with burglar's family in 2009 shooting death at auto lot | jury, burglar, lot - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO

    Obviously the defendants in this case could have held their fire unless or until the person inside tried to exit -- at minimum. It simply was not reasonable to shoot him through the closed door. If you don't get that then you just don't understand the legal standard.
    A police report is an analysis, it is not a statement of fact. The police report advances an argument that the writer, writing on behalf of the police, BELIEVES that the suspects never posed a threat.

    A convincing rebuttal is for the accused to declare that he did find them a threat. He noticed that they were armed. That by itself is sufficient basis upon which to feel threatened. Police also feel threatened when they have to deal with armed people. One officer protects himself and his partner while the partner disarms a suspect, even if all they wish to do is talk to the suspect. Police will often shoot a suspect who is armed, but not an immediate threat to the officers, if the suspect doesn't comply with the police officer's orders to drop their weapon.

    If you are armed and trespassing on someone's property it is quite reasonable for the property owner to assume that you are a threat. What the police are "arguing" is that the suspect was not an immediate threat. That's irrelevant. Non-immediate threats have a nasty way of becoming immediate threats very quickly. Police don't let suspects that they've stopped on the street keep their weapons on their body as they deal with police. The suspect doesn't need to be brandishing a weapon and threatening police, all the suspect needs to do is be in possession of a weapon and the police consider him a threat.

    This report from the police is basically speculation on the state of mind of the accused and it tries to second guess on how the threat assessment should have been decided by using standards of risk assessment that police don't even use themselves when dealing with suspects.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    TX law allows for the use of deadly force in the defense of property - both your own and that of someone else.
    The killing was legal; the fact that the people defending said property were penalized is beyond pathetic.
    Last edited by PzKfW IVe; 08-29-11 at 04:57 PM.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    and again you show your ignorance. a judgement against you by a civil court does not a murderer make. please...for the love of God, look up the definition of fact.
    Let me type this slowly so you can hopefully understand: the standard of evidence for both a criminal grand jury and a civil trial is proof by a preponderance of the evidence. So what we have here is one grand jury, where a preliminary case was made, and a full trial, where the case was fully tried. The fact that the full trial found them at fault by a preponderance of the evidence suggests that a criminal indictment should have gone down.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    so, since your wife sat on the jury of a murder trial once....you are an expert. thanks for making that appeal to authority (look up locial fallacies if it escapes you). now we all "get it"
    Well, what makes me MORE of an expert than you is the fact that I went to law school and was a litigator. What's your legal experience, genius?

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well, I am a lawyer, and I have both tried cases to juries and sat on juries, so I think I'm pretty familiar with the standard. As I mentioned above, FYI, the standard for the grand jury is the same standard that the civil court applied when the civil jury returned a verdict against the defendants. Two juries -- two different outcomes. One difference is that there was a full trial in the civil court, where both sides could present evidence.
    Civil court is reasonable doubt, criminal is beyond a reasonable doubt.

    As for the difference, are you telling me Mr. Lawyer that in a grand jury the State is not allowed to bring forth evidence to prove the necessity for a trial?
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    AdamT I will still also LOVE to hear you explain how the man that shot the guy is more at fault than the guy who got shot for there being a fatherless little girl now.

    This is just one of the things you seemed to ignore, dodge or talk around buy im VERY curious on your answer I think its going to be very entertaining.

    To flashback it was brought up that there is no a fatherless girl because this guy (the father who was a burglar, drug addict and intruder) got shot while trespassing but a property owner and you said the property owner is more to blame than the father.
    guy was a drug addict POS. the little girl is better off. having done foster care for over a decade, I have lost count of the number of children who were raped, abused, starved, sold to paedos, etc, etc, etc by their drug addicted parents.
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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    A police report is an analysis, it is not a statement of fact. The police report advances an argument that the writer, writing on behalf of the police, BELIEVES that the suspects never posed a threat.

    A convincing rebuttal is for the accused to declare that he did find them a threat. He noticed that they were armed. That by itself is sufficient basis upon which to feel threatened. Police also feel threatened when they have to deal with armed people. One officer protects himself and his partner while the partner disarms a suspect, even if all they wish to do is talk to the suspect. Police will often shoot a suspect who is armed, but not an immediate threat to the officers, if the suspect doesn't comply with the police officer's orders to drop their weapon.

    If you are armed and trespassing on someone's property it is quite reasonable for the property owner to assume that you are a threat. What the police are "arguing" is that the suspect was not an immediate threat. That's irrelevant. Non-immediate threats have a nasty way of becoming immediate threats very quickly. Police don't let suspects that they've stopped on the street keep their weapons on their body as they deal with police. The suspect doesn't need to be brandishing a weapon and threatening police, all the suspect needs to do is be in possession of a weapon and the police consider him a threat.

    This report from the police is basically speculation on the state of mind of the accused and it tries to second guess on how the threat assessment should have been decided by using standards of risk assessment that police don't even use themselves when dealing with suspects.
    Actually a defendant's statement about his subjective belief is NOT relevant, as it's an objective reasonable person standard.

    If a paranoid schizophrenic believes that you are a CIA assassin who is about to garrot him on the street, his subjective belief does not give him the legal right to stick a knife in your heart.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well, what makes me MORE of an expert than you is the fact that I went to law school and was a litigator. What's your legal experience, genius?
    unlike you, I never claimed to be an expert. I trust the people who were actually there.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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