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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    NOT bull****. I made a general legal argument because you asked for one.
    Again - bull****. I said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Under Colorado law, you do not have the right to defend your property using deadly force, and self-defense was not at issue here. Again, if you disagree, look at the law and tell me why, specifically, you believe these guys did not violate it. Appeals to authority (i.e. the grand jury) will be ignored.
    You responded by invoking the castle doctrine, which is a legal concept. Clearly you were attempting to answer my question, which is pretty obviously a legal, not a philosophical question, and which actually mentioned Colorado law specifically. It's the same question, in fact, that I've been asking for the last 100 pages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    Did you really think I was going to pore over Colorado law as if it were the only legal or philosophical argument that was relevant? We are NOT arguing Colorado law here. Understand that.
    I am, and have been arguing Colorado law for the last 100 pages. Understand that. If you'd like to bow out because you're too lazy to look up the statutes (which, again, I've posted in this thread), go right ahead, but please stop deluding yourself into thinking that I've been saying anything other than that these guys violated the law. If you don't want to argue Colorado law, I'd suggest you stop responding to my posts.
    Last edited by Aderleth; 09-26-11 at 10:41 PM.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    well counselor, as both of us know someone is presumed innocent until that presumption is defeated by proof beyond a Reasonable doubt that guilt exists. if that proof is absent than the presumption of innocence is never swept away and thus the person was never "guilty of a crime" though we can say that he did commit the crime as a matter of opinion. For example, I assert OJ did murder his wife but I cannot say he is "guilty" of murder because that was never established beyond a reasonable doubt by the one decider that matter-the petit jury who tried his case.
    I'm saying they committed the crime. That's what I've been saying for the last 100 pages or so. Obviously it's an opinion, but so is the contention that they didn't commit the crime. The difference being, in this case, that my opinion is consistent with both the facts as we know them and the law. So they're murderers in exactly the same way that their victim was a thief: they performed the acts and had the requisite mental state to constitute the elements of that crime. Incidentally, while I would agree that it would be mistaken to say that they've been found guilty of a crime, I don't think it's inaccurate to say that they are guilty of a crime. Obviously they weren't found guilty, but that doesn't mean they didn't violate the law.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post

    If you don't want to argue Colorado law, I'd suggest you stop responding to my posts.
    I have been arguing the way Colorado law should be, not the way that it is. If I am restricted from arguing the way it should be, then it seems we have nothing left to argue.


    I suppose you will next want to debate whether or not today is Thursday.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Did burglars trespass and were attempting to steal from the property owner? Yes? then I would say the property owner was justified in using lethal force.
    Property rights are not a lawful defense for using deadly force in Colorado, and the state’s so-called Make My Day law, which sets lower standard for using force, applies to households, not businesses.


    Read more: Jury sides with burglar's family in 2009 shooting death at auto lot | jury, burglar, lot - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO

    Perhaps the law needs to be changed to include businesses.

    I think the proper fine would have been one dollar.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sig View Post
    I have been arguing the way Colorado law should be, not the way that it is. If I am restricted from arguing the way it should be, then it seems we have nothing left to argue.


    I suppose you will next want to debate whether or not today is Thursday.
    You've made a grand total of four posts on this thread:

    1) In the first one, you claimed that I was "taking up with the side of criminals."

    2) When I pointed out that that's stupid, and asked you, very specifically, to explain to me why what the three business owners did was not also a crime under the relevant law, you made a half-assed attempt to do so by a) fatuously alleging that the prosecutor must not have had a good case if he couldn't get the the grand jury to agree with him and b) inaccurately attempting to invoke the Castle Doctrine. This was pretty obviously an attempt to claim that what these guys did was not illegal. You were attempting to make a legal argument.

    3) When I pointed out that you completely and totally misapplied the law, you backtracked, and suddenly started to claim that you're not interested in the law, but are, in fact, interested in a philosophical debate; and furthermore, that you are "not interested in Colorado law." This is funny, given that you chose to engage in a philosophical debate by responding to a post of mine that was not remotely about philosophy, and specifically and explicitly addressed the ramifications of Colorado law as it stands.

    4) Now you're claiming that you've "been arguing the way Colorado law should be..."

    This is, frankly, the most laughably and blatantly intellectually dishonest statement I've seen in recent memory.

    A word of advice: Put the shovel down. You've dug yourself into a deep enough hole already.

    But that's neither here nor there. In your last post, can I infer from your reference to arguing about what day of the week it is that you agree with me that it's fairly self-evident that these guys violated the law? If so, would you like to take a crack at explaining that to Oscar? Because he's been denying that fairly straightforward fact for about a hundred pages now.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    You've made a grand total of four posts on this thread:

    1) In the first one, you claimed that I was "taking up with the side of criminals."

    2) When I pointed out that that's stupid, and asked you, very specifically, to explain to me why what the three business owners did was not also a crime under the relevant law, you made a half-assed attempt to do so by a) fatuously alleging that the prosecutor must not have had a good case if he couldn't get the the grand jury to agree with him and b) inaccurately attempting to invoke the Castle Doctrine. This was pretty obviously an attempt to claim that what these guys did was not illegal. You were attempting to make a legal argument.

    3) When I pointed out that you completely and totally misapplied the law, you backtracked, and suddenly started to claim that you're not interested in the law, but are, in fact, interested in a philosophical debate; and furthermore, that you are "not interested in Colorado law." This is funny, given that you chose to engage in a philosophical debate by responding to a post of mine that was not remotely about philosophy, and specifically and explicitly addressed the ramifications of Colorado law as it stands.

    4) Now you're claiming that you've "been arguing the way Colorado law should be..."

    This is, frankly, the most laughably and blatantly intellectually dishonest statement I've seen in recent memory.

    A word of advice: Put the shovel down. You've dug yourself into a deep enough hole already.

    But that's neither here nor there. In your last post, can I infer from your reference to arguing about what day of the week it is that you agree with me that it's fairly self-evident that these guys violated the law? If so, would you like to take a crack at explaining that to Oscar? Because he's been denying that fairly straightforward fact for about a hundred pages now.
    squeal all you want mattlock, innocent until PROVEN guilty is a cornerstone of the american justice system. your OPINION doesn't prove these guys are guilty of anything.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    squeal all you want mattlock, innocent until PROVEN guilty is a cornerstone of the american justice system. your OPINION doesn't prove these guys are guilty of anything.
    And your opinion doesn't prove that they aren't. Why don't we compare our analysis of the situation and see which opinion has more merit? I've asked you to do so many, many times, and you've failed entirely every single time. Keep pushing the opinion angle if you like. All that tells me is that you lack the courage to actually stand up for what you claim to believe by making a real argument.
    Last edited by Aderleth; 09-30-11 at 12:10 AM.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    squeal all you want mattlock, innocent until PROVEN guilty is a cornerstone of the american justice system. your OPINION doesn't prove these guys are guilty of anything.
    They were found not guilty of murder. However in a civil suit they were found guilty. So they were guilty by the law. Just not of murder.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    And your opinion doesn't prove that they aren't. .
    sure, but the FACT (the only fact in this arguement) that they were not convicted of anything does.

    they were not convicted, they are in the eyes of the law not guilty. that's the only "real arguement" that matters. you can piss yourself and cry about it all you want. it's not going to change that one basic relevant fact.

    Why don't we compare our analysis of the situation and see which opinion has more merit?
    why bother? the grand jury already decided that my opinion in this case has more merit. get over it
    Last edited by OscarB63; 09-30-11 at 10:55 AM.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    They were found not guilty of murder.
    that's what I've been saying all along. Mattlock is the one who's been squealing that they are murderers.

    However in a civil suit they were found guilty.
    wrongo boyo, they were found to be liable. there is a difference
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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