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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokified View Post
    What would really amaze you would be the sharp decrease in violent crime if people were allowed to fight back.
    People are allowed to fight back. What they're not supposed to do is fight preemptively.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    We've talked about this. A grand jury uses the same standard of proof as a civil trial. So using the same standard of proof to reach conclusions on substantively identical factual issues (i.e. did the defendants willfully cause the death of the trespasser, and if so, did they have a valid reason to do so (i.e. self defense)), jury A reached conclusions that are totally inconsistent with the conclusions of jury B. Since they cannot both be right, both are suspect, and neither can be a basis for any conclusions. This is why I've repeatedly asked you to address the facts and the law rather than appealing to a dubious authority.
    The part that you are missing here though is that in a criminal trial one must be found guilty by unanimous decision where in civil court the scale only has to be slightly tipped in one direction.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    People are allowed to fight back. What they're not supposed to do is fight preemptively.
    This is incorrect. In many (most) states you have the duty to retreat, not fight back and defend yourself. It was not until recently that states began reconsidering and in some cases even passing/repealing laws making it acceptable to defend yourself without the duty to retreat.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokified View Post
    The part that you are missing here though is that in a criminal trial one must be found guilty by unanimous decision where in civil court the scale only has to be slightly tipped in one direction.
    The part that you're missing is that there was no criminal trial. There was a grand jury. Not the same thing. Also, not all juries (criminal or civil) need to be unanimous. Every jurisdiction handles this a little bit differently.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokified View Post
    This is incorrect. In many (most) states you have the duty to retreat, not fight back and defend yourself. It was not until recently that states began reconsidering and in some cases even passing/repealing laws making it acceptable to defend yourself without the duty to retreat.
    Nope. Most western states have never had duty to retreat laws, and that's been the case since before many western states were actually states. Duty to retreat is mostly a Northeastern phenomenon, and even there, it's contingent upon the ability to retreat. If you can't retreat, you can still defend yourself.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    People are allowed to fight back. What they're not supposed to do is fight preemptively.
    so if someone is running at me with a knife I cannot shoot until he stabs me

    or if a guy draws for a weapon I cannot shoot him until he shoots?

    actually what is banned is me being robbed and 12 weeks later I see the guy walking down the street and I walk up behind him and garrote him with a piece of piano wire or wire up his auto with 4 pounds of C-4



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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I quoted you the statutory definition of murder in the relevant jurisdiction, and your response is that it's not the definition of murder. Would you also like to argue that the earth doesn't revolve around the sun? Or perhaps that I'm not currently writing in the English language?

    I mean, seriously, how desperate are you to avoid the facts?
    LMAO
    play word games all you want but that fact remains that what you said in your original post and how you applied it to the man is NOT murder. He is not a murder nor did he commit murder. Those are the FACTS

    Talk about avoiding facts, oh the irony.
    Try again LMAO
    PURE STUPIDITY 1.) Glenn Beck doesnt lie. 2.) Obama is Jesus like 3.) Sara Palin is so smart & shes a great speaker. 4.) Obama does just about everything perfect. 5.) Fox doesn' t lean right 6.) Pro-Choice is no different than Pro-Slavery 7.) MSNBC doesn't lean left. 8.) What TSA does is no different than sexual assault & child porn.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    Nope. Most western states have never had duty to retreat laws, and that's been the case since before many western states were actually states. Duty to retreat is mostly a Northeastern phenomenon, and even there, it's contingent upon the ability to retreat. If you can't retreat, you can still defend yourself.
    Most western states are not most states. I never claimed that all states had this silly restriction. Your level of understanding it from reading about it and my level of understanding from going through it personally makes me a little more experienced. I am not trying to argue with you, you are just wrong. Take the knowledge and act on it if you disagree. I personally feel that even if I am standing in the middle of nowhere that I have the right to be there without being violated in any way shape or form by anyone else, and in the event that I am threatened that I have the right to defend my position with extreme prejudice.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    We've talked about this. A grand jury uses the same standard of proof as a civil trial. So using the same standard of proof to reach conclusions on substantively identical factual issues (i.e. did the defendants willfully cause the death of the trespasser, and if so, did they have a valid reason to do so (i.e. self defense)), jury A reached conclusions that are totally inconsistent with the conclusions of jury B. Since they cannot both be right, both are suspect, and neither can be a basis for any conclusions. This is why I've repeatedly asked you to address the facts and the law rather than appealing to a dubious authority.
    100% FALSE lmao
    PURE STUPIDITY 1.) Glenn Beck doesnt lie. 2.) Obama is Jesus like 3.) Sara Palin is so smart & shes a great speaker. 4.) Obama does just about everything perfect. 5.) Fox doesn' t lean right 6.) Pro-Choice is no different than Pro-Slavery 7.) MSNBC doesn't lean left. 8.) What TSA does is no different than sexual assault & child porn.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so if someone is running at me with a knife I cannot shoot until he stabs me

    or if a guy draws for a weapon I cannot shoot him until he shoots?
    That's a nonsense argument and we both know it. You've studied the standards for self defense and so have I. If someone is running at you with a knife you are under an objectively reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily harm and you're free to use deadly force to protect yourself. That hypothetical is pretty obviously not what happened in this situation.

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