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Thread: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    This is very good advice. I've personally reviewed in-custody interviews where the cops say things like "if you just admit what you did, it'll be better for you," and the client's dumb enough to buy it. The first and last words out of your mouth (beyond "my name is x") should be "I'd like to see my lawyer."

    My Criminal Procedure professor once told us a story about a client she had who was arrested after breaking into a home (the residents were out of town or something). While he's standing in the living room of this house, he said to the cops "okay, you got me on a [whatever the statute number is for burglary]." There's not much a defense attorney can do for you at that point except try to get the confession excluded.

    Yeah, like I said, I'm an ex-cop: very few detectives are Columbo or Matlock, and they really don't need to be. Most suspects convict themselves out of their own mouth, either because they submit to questioning and shoot their mouth off to the cops, or because they told someone else too much and word got around until someone "dropped a dime".

    We're actually quite lucky that most criminals are fairly stupid.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    I will never stop being amazed when people attempt to defend the actions of murderers. Frankly, these guys got off lucky. They should be in prison, not just in debt.
    What would really amaze you would be the sharp decrease in violent crime if people were allowed to fight back.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    How so? I've explained that the conclusions of the two juries were factually inconsistent, which means that one of them must have reached a bad decision (i.e. did not do their job). We don't know which one of them. Consequently neither conclusion is a reliable basis for any conclusions at all as to the legality of the actions of these men. What about this reasoning - specifically - do you find to be inadequate?
    You are aware that there are stricter standards for a criminal trial than there is for a civil trial? This means that the jury in the civil trial basically said it was likely or probable that the shop owners shot and killed one of the burglars, not beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact a jury in a civil trial basically is it was probably that these shop keepers killed the burglar is not evidence that the shop keepers did any thing illegal or even committed murder.


    Keep in mind that by it's very nature, the fact that a grand jury was convened suggests that the prosecutor did want to try these guys for murder.
    And why do you think the prosecutor did not want to try these men for murder or even some lesser crime? You can't say there was a lack evidence,witnesses and confession that the shop keepers shot and killed one of the burglars. It is basically a open and shut case the shop keepers shot the burglars,if this was murder case it would be a extremely easy job for the prosecutor.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokified View Post
    What would really amaze you would be the sharp decrease in violent crime if people were allowed to fight back.
    that happened in a town I once lived in when i was the first person to shoot a mugger in a rather long period of time. after the DA noted that what I did was proper and that lots of people had carry permits, muggings went from rare to non-existent



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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aderleth View Post
    This is very good advice. I've personally reviewed in-custody interviews where the cops say things like "if you just admit what you did, it'll be better for you," and the client's dumb enough to buy it. The first and last words out of your mouth (beyond "my name is x") should be "I'd like to see my lawyer."

    My Criminal Procedure professor once told us a story about a client she had who was arrested after breaking into a home (the residents were out of town or something). While he's standing in the living room of this house, he said to the cops "okay, you got me on a [whatever the statute number is for burglary]." There's not much a defense attorney can do for you at that point except try to get the confession excluded.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by O_Guru View Post
    I repeat it is not the definition of murder, murder is a legal term, the guy is not a murder no matter how bad you want him to be or try to sell your opinon that he is LMAO
    I quoted you the statutory definition of murder in the relevant jurisdiction, and your response is that it's not the definition of murder. Would you also like to argue that the earth doesn't revolve around the sun? Or perhaps that I'm not currently writing in the English language?

    I mean, seriously, how desperate are you to avoid the facts?

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    that happened in a town I once lived in when i was the first person to shoot a mugger in a rather long period of time. after the DA noted that what I did was proper and that lots of people had carry permits, muggings went from rare to non-existent
    On the other hand we have liberal states, like the state of MN, that would lock up anyone who even remotely attempted to fight back as opposed to retreating which essentially enables these criminal bastards to do whatever they want whenever they feel like it.

    This needs to stop. Not to mention the tax payers have yet another expense with this worthless law enforcement and pathetic legal system.

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokified View Post
    On the other hand we have liberal states, like the state of MN, that would lock up anyone who even remotely attempted to fight back as opposed to retreating which essentially enables these criminal bastards to do whatever they want whenever they feel like it.

    This needs to stop. Not to mention the tax payers have yet another expense with this worthless law enforcement and pathetic legal system.
    anyone who attempts to perpetrate a felony upon another person should be barred from seeking redress in either the criminal or civil courts for whatever happens to them in the proximity of the felonious transaction



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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You are aware that there are stricter standards for a criminal trial than there is for a civil trial? This means that the jury in the civil trial basically said it was likely or probable that the shop owners shot and killed one of the burglars, not beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact a jury in a civil trial basically is it was probably that these shop keepers killed the burglar is not evidence that the shop keepers did any thing illegal or even committed murder.
    We've talked about this. A grand jury uses the same standard of proof as a civil trial. So using the same standard of proof to reach conclusions on substantively identical factual issues (i.e. did the defendants willfully cause the death of the trespasser, and if so, did they have a valid reason to do so (i.e. self defense)), jury A reached conclusions that are totally inconsistent with the conclusions of jury B. Since they cannot both be right, both are suspect, and neither can be a basis for any conclusions. This is why I've repeatedly asked you to address the facts and the law rather than appealing to a dubious authority.


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    And why do you think the prosecutor did not want to try these men for murder or even some lesser crime?
    In the post that you're responding to I specifically pointed out that the prosecutor did want to try these men for murder. This is why he convened a grand jury. I can't believe I'm explaining this yet again, but the way a grand jury works is as follows:

    The prosecutor reviews the evidence, and decides he wants to bring a criminal case against someone. Before he is allowed to do so, he first has to convince a grand jury to allow him to do so. The grand jury is convened, the prosecutor makes his case (just the prosecutor - there is no judge or defense attorney). The grand jury makes a decision as to whether or not to prosecute. So the decision to actually prosecute is emphatically not in the hands of the prosecutor, it's in the hands of the jury.

    Since we've established, over and over again, that the decisions reached by the juries cannot be squared with one another, neither decision is a particularly valid basis for any conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You can't say there was a lack evidence,witnesses and confession that the shop keepers shot and killed one of the burglars. It is basically a open and shut case the shop keepers shot the burglars,if this was murder case it would be a extremely easy job for the prosecutor.
    Did you even read the many, many posts I've made on this subject? Many of them addressed directly to you?

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    Re: Burglar's family awarded $300,000 in wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    anyone who attempts to perpetrate a felony upon another person should be barred from seeking redress in either the criminal or civil courts for whatever happens to them in the proximity of the felonious transaction
    I agree. If the prosecution can use the argument that a situation would not have occured unless a certain action was committed by the accused, then the same argument should hold true on the other side of the table.

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