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Thread: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

  1. #81
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Russia and Germany as well.
    Barbarossa was pushed back a couple hours to get the last few trains across the border.

    Ummm...Japan's largest trading partner prior to WWII was the United States.

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    The Strait is a significant force multiplier...
    That may have been true in about 1943, but in the days of supersonic fighter jets it's not as big of a help. The straight can be crossed in about 7 minutes. The whole world learned from the Israelis that if you knock out runways right off the bat it really doesn't matter how many fighters the enemy has or how advanced they are.
    Last edited by Deuce; 08-27-11 at 09:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Why? Taiwan should take care of itself. Do we really want to get in it with China over Taiwan?
    Is it possible that you don't understand our history with Taiwan and why we're their buddies today?

  4. #84
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    T

    There are scholars and customs on both sides of the issue. What you do not understand is that the territory was clearly agreed, by all parties, to be Chinese territory. Had it not been for the victory of the Chinese Communist Party in the mainland no one would even be raising the issue today because the matter of Taiwan's status would have been considered settled decades ago. All this talk about Taiwan not being Chinese territory is prompted by geopolitics. Reunification of Taiwan with China would be a major improvement in China's strategic position in the region and this would be to the detriment of the imperial interests of the United States. To maintain its control of the region the U.S. sees a need to maintain that illusion of an uncertain status.
    Well, fortunately for ROC, no one can claim ownership of their country and give it back to the mainland ala Hong Kong. And I don't think they're dumb enough to willingly rejoin the mainland as long as the Chicoms are in power there. If the mainland were to reform, however, that might be a serious question...

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben K. View Post
    Why would the Taiwanese want to regress though in terms of freedoms and democracy? What happens elsewhere is irrelevant, it's taiwans status quo that matters and you're observations imply a regression. What does the PRC offer the Taiwanese?
    What kind of regression would it really be to simply prohibit parties from advocating something they could never seriously pursue in the first place? Any leader in Taiwan would have to be suicidal to attempt secession without China giving its blessing, which it is not likely to do any time soon. Saying a provincial government cannot advocate secession is not some terrible death blow to democracy or freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    That may have been true in about 1943, but in the days of supersonic fighter jets it's not as big of a help. The straight can be crossed in about 7 minutes. The whole world learned from the Israelis that if you knock out runways right off the bat it really doesn't matter how many fighters the enemy has or how advanced they are.
    It is interesting that you mention Operation Focus, because I see that as a model for how a rapid Chinese attack on Taiwan could decisively hand victory to China in a day. Presently just with the air and naval power they have situated nearby I believe China could neutralize the air and naval forces of Taiwan within a matter of hours, including its air defense network. After that Taiwan would not have a chance in hell of stopping China. They would only be able to irritate Chinese forces and, in the event of invasion, try to frustrate the efforts of ground forces. However, no matter what I do not see any chance of another country coming to Taiwan's defense or Taiwan being able to prevent China from taking the island.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    What kind of regression would it really be to simply prohibit parties from advocating something they could never seriously pursue in the first place? Any leader in Taiwan would have to be suicidal to attempt secession without China giving its blessing, which it is not likely to do any time soon. Saying a provincial government cannot advocate secession is not some terrible death blow to democracy or freedom.



    It is interesting that you mention Operation Focus, because I see that as a model for how a rapid Chinese attack on Taiwan could decisively hand victory to China in a day. Presently just with the air and naval power they have situated nearby I believe China could neutralize the air and naval forces of Taiwan within a matter of hours, including its air defense network. After that Taiwan would not have a chance in hell of stopping China. They would only be able to irritate Chinese forces and, in the event of invasion, try to frustrate the efforts of ground forces. However, no matter what I do not see any chance of another country coming to Taiwan's defense or Taiwan being able to prevent China from taking the island.
    China would not have an issue in neutralizing Taiwans defenses, but in landing enough troops quickly enough to make Chinese control over Taiwan the defacto state, and make any attempt to change it a costly exercise for any trying to assist Taiwan
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    article

    Few people think Obama will approve the sale. Congress has to check the President on this and ensure the sale goes ahead. With China continuing to moderinze its military, Taiwan needs a credible defense.
    Okay, ludahai, what makes you think that a mere 66 new F-16, a design from the 70s while updated, can actually stop a PRC invasion?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    But we have to make sure that we can do enough damage against China to ensure they never try to attack us. It would be nice if the United States and Japan were a little firmer in their support of Taiwan than they are.
    Say what? You do realize that the PRC somewhat views Taiwan as a lynch pin on the other troubled provinces no? If Taiwan goes, so will Tibet and Western Semi-autonmous regions. In that aspect, the cost to keep Taiwan from full recognized independence is one that China is willing to bear. Short of possibly a nuke, you guys really don't have much capacity to make the PRC think twice in an independence scenario. Furthermore, the US is basically China's bitch considering how much power it holds as a debt holder. Honestly, it makes more sense for China to run its takeover the way it's currently doing now: economic integration. At some point, it will make sense to actually reunify due to the economic ties. Taiwan right now just serves as an excuse to expand a military budget. Right now Taiwan doesn't stand a chance.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    "blink of the eye"....is kinda fast, dude

    Do you know what, the Middle Kingdom is ?
    Considering how many short and medium ranged missiles China has pointed at Taiwan right now, he's not far off the mark. It's honestly amazing how Taiwanese basically live their lives like Americans did during the Cold War and its threat of imminent nuclear annihilation. The PRC has thousands of missiles pointed at Formosa right now.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    That may have been true in about 1943, but in the days of supersonic fighter jets it's not as big of a help. The straight can be crossed in about 7 minutes. The whole world learned from the Israelis that if you knock out runways right off the bat it really doesn't matter how many fighters the enemy has or how advanced they are.
    I would like to see them also knock out all of the highways in Taiwan that can also be used as runways. Annual drills are even held to prepare for this eventuality. The expressways are DESIGNED to allow for fighter landings in the case of an emergency...
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