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Thread: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

  1. #51
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But we control weapon sales, companies cannot sell them on their own and defense companies already make a lot of money and enjoy quite a large amount of privilege due to their lot. This is not really a national security issue, well not OUR nation anyway. In fact, getting involved is more of a risk to our "national security" than not.
    If Taiwan wants to buy aircraft, the company that builds them wants to sell them and the US government sees no national security issue in the sale, I really dont see the problem.

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Taiwanese do not want reunification (sic) with China. Taiwan is a democracy that generally respects human rights. China has no legal rights to Taiwan and it is clear that Taiwan's people want nothing to do with political union with China. Leave it to you to take the side of thugs... again...
    Actually China has explicit legal rights to Taiwan as its territory. I have explained this to you before as clearly as a person can but you are just too obsessed with your hatred of China to allow that China might actually be right about something.

    When it comes to the attitude of the people in Taiwan it is because they have been fed a misguided picture of China like on Hong Kong. Since being handed over to Chinese rule Hong Kong has not lost its freedom or democracy. Indeed, the British were not even willing to allow Hong Kong any sense of public participation in government until a decade after they already agreed to hand over the territory. However, many Taiwanese seem to think that Hong Kong has seen some huge drop in its levels of freedom and democracy so they think reunification means a loss of their system of government.

    In reality, China would preserve the present system of government in Taiwan. The only likely change would be preventing parties with secessionist policy goals from serving in government. No nightmare scenario exists for the people of Taiwan under peaceful reunification where they lose a notable amount of their autonomy. For practical and political purposes China would consider it best to have minimal interference with the present state of affairs in Taiwan.

    So long as Taiwan doesn't pull a Tibet there is no reason to envision that there would be any major change from their present status following peaceful reunification. Eventually political reform in China would render the whole controversy moot as its political system will be sufficiently in tune with the ideals of democracy and liberty to erase any weariness on the part of the Taiwanese people.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Hong Kong is a pretty good case study for what might happen....

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    If China has no legal rights to Taiwan, then Taiwan has no legal right to China and Mongolia. Yet, they still claim all of the Chinese mainland and a big chunk of Mongolia. Oh, and Taiwan too. They want unification, they just want it their way.
    Those claims are only a pipe dream of the KMT government. The vast majority of Taiwanese don't take those absurd claims seriously.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    Yeah people seem to be under the impression that pissing off one of your largest creditors is a GOOD THING.

    Just like everyone who's railing about this goes to the bank, and pisses on their loan consultants desk after taking out a line of credit
    it isn't like the U.S. is going to the Central Bank of China and begging the Chinese to lend the U.S. money. They bid for Treasurys just like anyone else who thinks they are a good investment...
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So we're arms dealers now? Supporting allies? What the hell has Taiwan ever done for us? The only reason we're concerned is that they can get us in trouble with China. Allies, bah! That street goes two ways, and we don't get **** from Taiwan. Hell, all our companies out source to China proper; we don't even get slave labor from Taiwan.
    The U.S. has long been arms dealers, selling arms all around the world.

    And you know, before Carter broke off diplomatic relations with Taiwan, the Taiwan government was the only one in East Asia that had a MUTUAL defense treaty with the U.S., meaning that Taiwan would come to the U.S. aid if it were attacked, unlike Japan and Korea. The government here also offerred troops for the effort in Korea, which Truman declined.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I do not think we should sell,lease or give away military vehicles and weapons to any country. Friends and allies have a funny way of turning into enemies and then somewhere down the road use that stuff against us or give or sell those things to someone who will use those things against us.
    What democratic states have done this?
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Actually China has explicit legal rights to Taiwan as its territory. I have explained this to you before as clearly as a person can but you are just too obsessed with your hatred of China to allow that China might actually be right about something.

    When it comes to the attitude of the people in Taiwan it is because they have been fed a misguided picture of China like on Hong Kong. Since being handed over to Chinese rule Hong Kong has not lost its freedom or democracy. Indeed, the British were not even willing to allow Hong Kong any sense of public participation in government until a decade after they already agreed to hand over the territory. However, many Taiwanese seem to think that Hong Kong has seen some huge drop in its levels of freedom and democracy so they think reunification means a loss of their system of government.

    In reality, China would preserve the present system of government in Taiwan. The only likely change would be preventing parties with secessionist policy goals from serving in government. No nightmare scenario exists for the people of Taiwan under peaceful reunification where they lose a notable amount of their autonomy. For practical and political purposes China would consider it best to have minimal interference with the present state of affairs in Taiwan.

    So long as Taiwan doesn't pull a Tibet there is no reason to envision that there would be any major change from their present status following peaceful reunification. Eventually political reform in China would render the whole controversy moot as its political system will be sufficiently in tune with the ideals of democracy and liberty to erase any weariness on the part of the Taiwanese people.
    Incompatible statements bolded.

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Actually China has explicit legal rights to Taiwan as its territory. I have explained this to you before as clearly as a person can but you are just too obsessed with your hatred of China to allow that China might actually be right about something.
    And I have explained to you why your assessment is wrong. I prefer to listen to the words of international legal scholars and the customs of international law than an anonymous person on the Internet. I asked you to cite an example of a territorial transfer from one state to another without the benefit of a properly signed, ratified, and executed treaty, and you failed to do that.

    When it comes to the attitude of the people in Taiwan it is because they have been fed a misguided picture of China like on Hong Kong. Since being handed over to Chinese rule Hong Kong has not lost its freedom or democracy. Indeed, the British were not even willing to allow Hong Kong any sense of public participation in government until a decade after they already agreed to hand over the territory. However, many Taiwanese seem to think that Hong Kong has seen some huge drop in its levels of freedom and democracy so they think reunification means a loss of their system of government.
    Taiwan has significantly more freedom and democracy than Hong Kong does. Comparing the two is apples and oranges.

    In reality, China would preserve the present system of government in Taiwan. The only likely change would be preventing parties with secessionist policy goals from serving in government. No nightmare scenario exists for the people of Taiwan under peaceful reunification where they lose a notable amount of their autonomy. For practical and political purposes China would consider it best to have minimal interference with the present state of affairs in Taiwan.
    There is no chance China would choose to retain Taiwan's current system of openness. It is already well known that Chinese pressure is already resulting in some amounts of self-censorhip among news companies that have connections in China. If you could read Chinese, you might actually know what I am talking about. And your comment that certain parties would be restricted would certainly amount to a MAJOR change in Taiwan's systen and would effectively return Taiwan to the status of being a one-party state.

    So long as Taiwan doesn't pull a Tibet there is no reason to envision that there would be any major change from their present status following peaceful reunification. Eventually political reform in China would render the whole controversy moot as its political system will be sufficiently in tune with the ideals of democracy and liberty to erase any weariness on the part of the Taiwanese people.
    Taiwan is not Tibet. Taiwan is Taiwan. Chinas has no legal rights in Taiwan. Taiwan is a vibrant democracy of 23 million people and is one of the 20 largest trading nations in the world. China is not moving toward democracy. People have been making these claims for two decades. It isn't happening. Again, if you could actually understand Chinese, you would know this.
    Last edited by ludahai; 08-26-11 at 08:25 PM.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Of course, ric can think like those inscrutable, blood-thirsty Chinese.
    Listen and learn...

    You and others have fallen into the trap that the more business we do with them, the less capability they will have to fight a war with us without hurting themselves. That ignores history, and it also ignores their ability to take hits.

    If 2,000,000 people starve to death in China because of a glitch in their economy, do you think the, Chinese leaders will give a **** if their population is down to 1,306,313,812?

    Their population is already too large. It would not matter to them

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