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Thread: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Of course China would rather not actually attack Taiwan, but use economic and political pressures to cause it to first not declare actual independance, and eventually rejoin China
    Indeed. The PRC plan these days is to use Taiwan as an excuse to expand its military budget and basically devour it slowly over time by economic integration. The last thing the PRC wants is an actual shooting war.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I would like to see them also knock out all of the highways in Taiwan that can also be used as runways. Annual drills are even held to prepare for this eventuality. The expressways are DESIGNED to allow for fighter landings in the case of an emergency...
    Easy. Use cluster bombs over roadways. The PRC doesn't need to destroy them. It merely needs to render them unusable to planes that aren't designed like the Gripen. How many fighters can land and take off from runways that are full of craters? Not even the Gripen can do that, it relies on the audacity to force the enemy to bomb every single road. improved and otherwise. And relying upon highways that will be rendered unusable as your plan is planning to fail.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Fair enough, but considering the point of view from a civilian, 1,500 ballistic missiles raining death down on their city within 10 minutes is somewhat analogous to the kind of imminent death aka cold war. AS for using ground based missile platforms to launch attacks on Taiwanese defenses, doesn't it make more sense to use mobile platforms? The Taiwanese basically know where the Fujian based missiles are. Any any attack will involve massing of troops, so the Taiwanese will basically have a heads up on when the attack is coming. IMO it makes more sense to use non-Fujian based assets to attack Taiwanese defenses. Or at least in conjunction with them. ^^


    .
    A few points

    I doubt the missles China currently has in Fujian are meant to be the only assets used to take on Taiwan, but more of a strong deterent to Taiwan declaring formal independance. The only time I expect China to attack Taiwan would be if it declared formal independance.

    .

    And these highways will be one of the next targets rendering the Taiwanese Air Force basically dead once they run out of fuel. This is the beauty of the Saab Gripen. It can operate from roads that no one would ever consider to be a usable landing strip. To the enemy, it's impossible to destroy every civilian improved and unimproved road. Taiwan relying upon hardened highways is rather idiotic as those will be targeted. Sure you have this asset, but when it's on the hit list and you cannot defend it, it's not really a usable asset.


    .
    The Gripen is an ideal plane for Taiwan and most countries that do not have massive budgets or much in the way of strategic depth. Being a 4.5 gen plane on a 4 gen budget it is one I wish Canada would look at before the F 35. I just dont think 65 F35s will be enough to replace the over 100 F18 that Canada originally bought. At the price of the F 35 Canada really cant afford more

    .
    Without nukes, there's no way. Considering the assets that China has bought from Russia, mainly guided missile cruisers, the naval forces Taiwan has are outclassed. Furthermore, the increase in quiet subs and the sheer number will overpower Taiwanese submarine assets.



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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    A few points

    I doubt the missles China currently has in Fujian are meant to be the only assets used to take on Taiwan, but more of a strong deterent to Taiwan declaring formal independance. The only time I expect China to attack Taiwan would be if it declared formal independance.
    Fujian's missile assets would be the first salvo. Taiwan is outclassed in basically everything. But that said, Fujian assets are known. So in a sense relying upon them isn't the best tool.


    The Gripen is an ideal plane for Taiwan and most countries that do not have massive budgets or much in the way of strategic depth. Being a 4.5 gen plane on a 4 gen budget it is one I wish Canada would look at before the F 35. I just dont think 65 F35s will be enough to replace the over 100 F18 that Canada originally bought. At the price of the F 35 Canada really cant afford more
    Well, the issue with the Gripen is that isn't really a comparable fighter to stop waves of Shenyang J-11s (basically Sukhoi 27s which is an outstanding air superiority plane) and J-10s. The Gripen would work well in harassing and basically griefing the PRC, but in terms of actually stopping a full scale air assault, that is not the plane to rely on.

    As for the F-35, honestly, no can really afford it anymore. Cost overruns are ridiculous...which is expected considering the sheer number of requirements that plane is expected to do. Everything from replace A-10s to Harriers. It's interesting how we've basically abandoned specialized air craft roles and built a plane that can do mostly everything. I suspect the F-35 will be a jack of all trades, a master of none. As for Canadian air requirements, I'm not entirely sure why you guys need to replace your F-18s in the first place.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Fujian's missile assets would be the first salvo. Taiwan is outclassed in basically everything. But that said, Fujian assets are known. So in a sense relying upon them isn't the best tool.




    Well, the issue with the Gripen is that isn't really a comparable fighter to stop waves of Shenyang J-11s (basically Sukhoi 27s which is an outstanding air superiority plane) and J-10s. The Gripen would work well in harassing and basically griefing the PRC, but in terms of actually stopping a full scale air assault, that is not the plane to rely on.

    As for the F-35, honestly, no can really afford it anymore. Cost overruns are ridiculous...which is expected considering the sheer number of requirements that plane is expected to do. Everything from replace A-10s to Harriers. It's interesting how we've basically abandoned specialized air craft roles and built a plane that can do mostly everything. I suspect the F-35 will be a jack of all trades, a master of none. As for Canadian air requirements, I'm not entirely sure why you guys need to replace your F-18s in the first place.
    The F 18 we have are now around 30 years old or older having been bought in the 80s. They are getting somewhat close to the due date for replacement, We could go with new F18, or F15s.


    As for Taiwan, any airforce it is going to have is going to be outclassed by that of China. No difference then any airforce Canada could have would be outclassed by that of the US. Or any airforce of Sweden being outclasse by that of the USSR, at least Sweden would have the benifit of other European airforces to assist. Taiwan would only have the US military and China is working on making US intervention a costly affair, hoping to deter such an act
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Taiwan is not worth fighting over. I'm sorry, but in the grand scheme, it's not. If they want to buy military tech from us, we could consider selling it to them for economic reasons. I would not consider it a sale to re-assert our treaty obligation though. Its value to us is not worth a major war.

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    The F 18 we have are now around 30 years old or older having been bought in the 80s. They are getting somewhat close to the due date for replacement, We could go with new F18, or F15s.
    Ah, I see. Your F-18s are in the fatigue phase. I remember stories about Strike Eagles falling apart from the same problems. Actually you guys should look into the Silent Eagle. It's like a 4.75 gen fighter!

    As for Taiwan, any airforce it is going to have is going to be outclassed by that of China.
    I don't know about that. Japan could probably take China on. Its fighters are fairly new, and its pilots are good. And its numbers are higher then Taiwan. Plus it has additional time to scramble fighters. Flying heavily modified souped up F-16s and F-15s would give them in many ways slight tech superiority. Japan has more F-15s than Taiwan has planes.

    No difference then any airforce Canada could have would be outclassed by that of the US. Or any airforce of Sweden being outclasse by that of the USSR, at least Sweden would have the benifit of other European airforces to assist. Taiwan would only have the US military and China is working on making US intervention a costly affair, hoping to deter such an act
    Oh yeah. There only way Taiwan could win a war with China is on the back of the US military. And I think Lud is underestimating the price China is willing to pay. If Taiwan goes, it's huge incentive for the North Eastern Semi Autonomous regions to break away and Tibet. In that regard, China is willing to pay quite a bit to hold on to Taiwan.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Ah, I see. Your F-18s are in the fatigue phase. I remember stories about Strike Eagles falling apart from the same problems. Actually you guys should look into the Silent Eagle. It's like a 4.75 gen fighter!



    I don't know about that. Japan could probably take China on. Its fighters are fairly new, and its pilots are good. And its numbers are higher then Taiwan. Plus it has additional time to scramble fighters. Flying heavily modified souped up F-16s and F-15s would give them in many ways slight tech superiority. Japan has more F-15s than Taiwan has planes.



    Oh yeah. There only way Taiwan could win a war with China is on the back of the US military. And I think Lud is underestimating the price China is willing to pay. If Taiwan goes, it's huge incentive for the North Eastern Semi Autonomous regions to break away and Tibet. In that regard, China is willing to pay quite a bit to hold on to Taiwan.
    The F15 Silent Eagle is the one sold to SK recently is it not? It would meet Canada's needs I expect


    I meant that China would outclass any airforce Taiwan could afford to keep. A population of 24 million or so, can not afford a military that could defeat the military of the second largest economy in the world
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    The F15 Silent Eagle is the one sold to SK recently is it not? It would meet Canada's needs I expect
    I know Boeing (?) was trying to sell it to Saudi Arabia as a replacement for their current inventory. I'm not sure just how stealthy it actually is though.

    I meant that China would outclass any airforce Taiwan could afford to keep. A population of 24 million or so, can not afford a military that could defeat the military of the second largest economy in the world
    Oh absolutely. It's honestly a good question to wonder if Taiwan is secretly funding a nuclear weapons program considering the massive inferiority they have against the PRC. Considering how easy it for a state to run a gun type manufacturing nuclear weapons program, I really do wonder if they aren't secretly arming SAMs with tactical nukes. That would put a real crimper in any PRC air assault.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    China got US stealth secrets from Pakistan without regard to the US. So what's the big deal about selling the F-16's to Taiwan? It just creates more issues for China to deal with militarily in their own back yard.
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