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Thread: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Why do we need to sell weapons? It's a shady business being the arms dealer of the world..
    Really? Why is it shady, so everyone else is shady too?
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Considering how many short and medium ranged missiles China has pointed at Taiwan right now, he's not far off the mark. It's honestly amazing how Taiwanese basically live their lives like Americans did during the Cold War and its threat of imminent nuclear annihilation. The PRC has thousands of missiles pointed at Formosa right now.
    Great, and after they fire them off the island will be totally useless to them.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I would like to see them also knock out all of the highways in Taiwan that can also be used as runways. Annual drills are even held to prepare for this eventuality. The expressways are DESIGNED to allow for fighter landings in the case of an emergency...
    It still cripples the air force. You still have to reload and refuel a fighter before it can go fight again, not easy to do when they're scattered about on the sides of highways.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    the only defense Taiwan has against China is world opinion. we could sell them seven thousand fighter planes and they are still completely screwed if China decides to take the island.

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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    China would not have an issue in neutralizing Taiwans defenses, but in landing enough troops quickly enough to make Chinese control over Taiwan the defacto state, and make any attempt to change it a costly exercise for any trying to assist Taiwan
    Several recent wars like the War in Iraq, the Russo-Georgian War, and the current conflict in Libya have demonstrated exactly how useful ground forces are when confronting a power that has control of the air and sea. Again, someone else alluded to Operation Focus. In the Six-Day War once the opposing air forces were demolished Israel had little trouble in its ground offensive. Nowadays the essential nature of air support is even greater. Also, China need not land troops on the main island at all to discourage intervention. No country will try to assist Taiwan after it loses its air and naval force. Supplying Taiwan with military materials alone would require breaking a naval and aerial blockade of the island. Maybe, maybe, some very covert assistance will take place, but nothing that could be a game-changer.

    Of course, China could easily land troops and seize large swathes of territory with minimal effort as well. It would not be necessary, however, to discourage foreign intervention.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Considering how many short and medium ranged missiles China has pointed at Taiwan right now, he's not far off the mark. It's honestly amazing how Taiwanese basically live their lives like Americans did during the Cold War and its threat of imminent nuclear annihilation. The PRC has thousands of missiles pointed at Formosa right now.
    There is so much nonsense being spouted in this post. While many of the short and medium range ballistic missiles can be armed with nuclear warheads, it is unlikely any actually are save for maybe a few that are probably not even aimed at Taiwan. Now, maybe some are near Taiwan in the event of conflict, but that is probably for the more obvious reason that the United States is a nuclear power and has pledged to defend Taiwan. It is to be expected they would have some preparation for the possibility that the U.S. would intervene and turn it into a nuclear conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    I would like to see them also knock out all of the highways in Taiwan that can also be used as runways. Annual drills are even held to prepare for this eventuality. The expressways are DESIGNED to allow for fighter landings in the case of an emergency...
    That will only help those fighters already in the air when the airbases get hit. In other words, the odds are that at least half of Taiwan's air force will be grounded in the opening salvo. Not to mention China undoubtedly knows what highways are capable of being used as air strips.
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    It still cripples the air force. You still have to reload and refuel a fighter before it can go fight again, not easy to do when they're scattered about on the sides of highways.
    Again, something that is prepared and trained for...
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    That will only help those fighters already in the air when the airbases get hit. In other words, the odds are that at least half of Taiwan's air force will be grounded in the opening salvo. Not to mention China undoubtedly knows what highways are capable of being used as air strips.
    Taiwan is ever vigilant in watching. If there really were an attack coming, they would get the planes up. Also, China can't destroy all of the highways with its missiles. You simply don't understand what you are talking about, as usual...
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Taiwan is ever vigilant in watching. If there really were an attack coming, they would get the planes up. Also, China can't destroy all of the highways with its missiles. You simply don't understand what you are talking about, as usual...
    it wouldnt need to

    Unless Taiwan has placed the infrustructure required to maintain jet fighters off military bases ( meaning the missiles, fuel, ammo and other parts, the loss of operational ability at Taiwans military air bases means the fighters are grounded, perhaps not destroyed, but still out of action.

    Overall I expect if China attacks Taiwan, it wont just be a punitive measure, but one to gain control over Taiwan. Given the military build up of China currently and in the future, Taiwan without external support would lose (perhaps not today, but within 10 years ). Of course I dont expect China to attack Taiwan unless it formally declares independance
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    There is nothing incompatible about that. Even the outright banning of political parties is considered acceptable in certain Western democracies. While most do not ban secessionist parties, they do engage in many official actions aimed at preventing secessionists from achieving political power.
    Except that sucessionists aren't successionists unless the territory is legally a part of the state in question to begin with.

    Many Western countries allow successionist parties. They are civilized countries. The same can't be said for the government of the PRC.


    There are scholars and customs on both sides of the issue. What you do not understand is that the territory was clearly agreed, by all parties, to be Chinese territory. Had it not been for the victory of the Chinese Communist Party in the mainland no one would even be raising the issue today because the matter of Taiwan's status would have been considered settled decades ago. All this talk about Taiwan not being Chinese territory is prompted by geopolitics. Reunification of Taiwan with China would be a major improvement in China's strategic position in the region and this would be to the detriment of the imperial interests of the United States. To maintain its control of the region the U.S. sees a need to maintain that illusion of an uncertain status.
    This is simply not true. There were many statements from the governments of the victorious allies that indicated that the status of Taiwan was undetermined pending the peace treaty that was to be negotiated (which was eventually signed in 1951 and went into effect in 1952.)

    Taiwan is NOT Chinese territory. No amount of rhetoric on your part can change that. Taiwan was NOT transferred to Chian following World War II. You have not shown any examples of territory changing hands between states without the benefit of a treaty that was properly signed and ratified. State practice is a basic source of international law and it is almost universally agreed by legal scholars that this holds in this case as well.

    You should also know that the 'effective control' doctrine has been increasingly used by the ICJ. The PRC has not been in effective control over Taiwan EVER. Taiwan is under the control of its people. Furthermore, China KNOWS this and it KNOWS it can't win in the legal arena, which is why it opposed the notion of it going to the ICJ.


    Your problem is you think that somehow being able to vote between party A and party B makes you freer or more democratic. In terms of freedom there is no real difference between Taiwan and Hong Kong. Hong Kong consistently ranks at the top in terms of economic freedom and has been ranked equivalent to Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea in civil liberties. It is only because of the limited extent of representative elections that Hong Kong is ranked below Taiwan.
    Taiwan is far higher political rights and has been higher (until recently) in civil liberties. Taiwan ranks as 'Free' by Freedom House, for example, which Hong Kong ranks as 'Partly Free'. Taiwan ranks 1 (on a scale of 1-7 with 1 being best) in political rights and 2 in civil liberties. The score dropped to 2 during the administration of President Ma. Hong Kong ranks 5 and 2 respectively. While civili liberties have been similar in the rankings, Taiwan still has more rights than people from Hong Kong -- this from people FROM Hong Kong who now live in Taiwan. Taiwan also ranks higher than Hong Kong in press freedoms. Freedom House ranks Taiwan as free with a score of 24 (a score that has dropped slightly during the KMT administration) and Hong Kong as Partly free with a score of 33. And if you read through the RSF (Reporters Without Borders) site, it is clear that Taiwan has better press freedoms than Hong Kong has.

    Self-censorship happens everywhere and in Hong Kong it has been overblown by fear-mongers like yourself.
    Or is poo-pooed by authoritarian apologists like yourself.

    No it would not. Were the DPP to end its backing for secession I can see no reason why China would seek to restrict them from power. Hong Kong politicians are allowed to make all sorts of political statements in opposition to China. If the DPP insisted on not changing its policy on that one issue then inevitably another party would emerge to challenge the KMT.
    Except that there is no record of this with the Chinese government. The fact is that Taiwan has rights under international law. We have an open, free-wheeling political process here that Hong Kong does not have. Comparing political freedom between Hong Kong and Taiwan is an utter joke. Of course Taiwan is more free. And we like it that way.

    This has nothing to do with what languages a person speaks. You refuse to accept even the slightest positive information about China, but love to gobble up everything negative from the wildest and most baseless conspiracy theories to outright racism. It was nice seeing your admission earlier in the thread that you actually do have an issue with the people of China and not merely the government.
    Sure it does. Because I am conversant in the language, I can read what the government puts out for the Chinese people to consume. Because I an understand the language, I can freely listen to their news reports and talk with its people. because I can understand the language, I know what is taught in their schools. Because I am conversant in its history, I have a far better understanding of what is going on there better than you do. You know, pro-China apologists have been defending China since the 1950s. They have been WRONG for decades. Pro-China apologists were wrong then... and they are wrong now...
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    Re: Senator: F-16 deal with Taiwan might bypass Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    it wouldnt need to

    Unless Taiwan has placed the infrustructure required to maintain jet fighters off military bases ( meaning the missiles, fuel, ammo and other parts, the loss of operational ability at Taiwans military air bases means the fighters are grounded, perhaps not destroyed, but still out of action.

    Overall I expect if China attacks Taiwan, it wont just be a punitive measure, but one to gain control over Taiwan. Given the military build up of China currently and in the future, Taiwan without external support would lose (perhaps not today, but within 10 years ). Of course I dont expect China to attack Taiwan unless it formally declares independance
    Once again, prepared for and trained for... There are ANNUAL exercises in which the jets land on highways (which are closed for the purpose), refueled and then take off again... Taiwan is very small and has supplies throughout the country. There are many roads in the country and they already have plans in place for emergencies -- of course, if Taiwan presents a credible deterrant, the liklihood of war is far reduced...
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