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Thread: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    of course the GOP would go along with what they formerly would scream is a TAX HIKE because it does not impact the wealthy. As my kids used to say when they were teenagers - DUH.
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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    of course the GOP would go along with what they formerly would scream is a TAX HIKE because it does not impact the wealthy. As my kids used to say when they were teenagers - DUH.
    LOL. If everyone pays the tax then how is it that you believe the wealthy wage earner is exempt?

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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Again...I always applaud honesty. As long as people recognize it has nothing to do with fair or fair share and it remains solely in the realm of screw them...make them pay for the poor...well...we will disagree...but I'll at least give you props.
    Well, fair is open to interpretation. Is it fair that I can be a millionaire by nothing more than being born to the right person? Or, does fairness occur when everyone pays a proportionate tax relative to their benefit of government? You could say that communism is the most fair, in that people are treated equally and there's no benefit to being born wealthy. Or, you could say a fixed tax per person is fair, as everyone pays the same. And there's millions of shades of gray.

    So, yes, I suppose I do see it fair that those with higher income pay more tax. And I understand how others could see that as not fair. How they define fair is different than how I define fair. My beliefs may have nothing to do with what you perceive as fair.

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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I am a little confused by the article in the OP, but the hypocrisy of the GOP is not surprising.
    it's only actually hypocritical if you assume a strawman conservative position. the argument from the GOP is that low, flat, permanent tax rates will spur growth. temporary tax credits, breaks, and so forth, are really just a form of stimulus spending. Which is why Bush's first "stimulus" attempt featured them.


    A good read for those who are actually interested in understanding what their opponents are saying, rather than trying (and failing) to play gotcha:


    ....One of Milton Friedman’s key achievements was working out a formal version of this idea, which is known as the “Permanent Income Hypothesis.” In short, it holds that most people are not utter fools, and that they therefore recognize temporary fluctuations in their income as temporary, and therefore as no basis for making long-term economic commitments. If your take-home pay is normally $5,000 a month, and you get a $1,000 Christmas bonus, you don’t go into January acting like a guy whose take-home pay is $6,000 a month. You act like a guy who just got $1,000 in new net worth, not $1,000 a month in new income. Likewise, if the government gives you a temporary tax break that adds $200 a month to your take-home pay, you don’t move from a $1,500-a-month apartment to a $1,700-a-month apartment, or build a $20,000 extension onto your house, or buy a $35,000 car instead of a $25,000 car. You know that the extra income won’t last forever.

    That’s why the ever-burgeoning stimulus project has underperformed. It started with those embarrassing $300 checks from the 2008 Bush stimulus, which grew up to be the $400 Making Work Pay tax credit, and then provided the mutant offspring of the payroll-tax cut, which is good for a few hundred bucks for most families, and up to a couple of grand for the high-rollers. It all adds up to about $10 billion a month — not the smallest of potatoes...

    And while temporary tax cuts probably aren’t very effective in general, there’s good reason to think that this one would be less effective than most. As Bryan Caplan explains, under perfectly free labor-market conditions it wouldn’t matter whether we cut the employee side or the employer side. But we have regulated labor markets (minimum-wage laws, union rules, etc.), and so it does matter. We cut the employee side rather than the employer side, which raises compensation. Cutting the employer side would have reduced the cost of labor: Prices go down, demand goes up — what is true for widgets is true for workers...

    Whatever they end up doing, Republicans should fight for one more change: making the rates permanent, at whatever level they end up at. More important than a relatively modest tweak of the tax rates here and there, the fact that we’re set to have a major national political brawl every year or so over tax rates is the source of a great deal of economic uncertainty. Investors need stable rules (recent EPA adventuring is unhelpful) and a stable political-economic environment in which to operate...

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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I do find it a wonderfully delicious bit of hypocrisy on BOTH sides, though I find utmost and distinct humor in the fact that the AP via MSNBC decided to...shockingly...focus only on the republicans. On one side, you have Republicans pushing against something that would cut taxes and put money into peoples pockets. On the flip side, you have Democrats pushing for something that will reduce revenue during a time when they say its most important to increase revenue.
    That has never been the Democratic argument. The Democratic position was that it was most important to stimulate the economy now, as it is a more critical and immediate issue than the debt. And to the extent that we ARE going to focus on reducing the deficit, the Democratic position was that we should increase revenue AND cut spending. I don't know who said that increasing revenue was the most important thing right now, but it wasn't any prominent Democrats that I'm aware of.

    Yep, its a tax increase. Its also one I have no huge issue with. I think the economic benefit of the additional money it puts into the market is largely negated by the short term nature of it, which I think is likely to lead it to be saved or simply used to pay down debt rather than actually significantly reinvested back into the economy on the near term. One or two year temporary tax holidays do little but let people have money they know is temporary and tenuous during a troubled time for the economy. What helps to stimulate is conrete, stable, secure economic conditions and a short term drop doesn't really do that.
    Paying down debt is fine...we need to remember that this wasn't just any recession, it was a financial crisis. The median time for a nation to deleverage its excess debt after a financial crisis is 7 years, during which time the economy is growing slowly (if at all). Helping people pay down their debt speeds up the deleveraging process so that people can get back to spending sooner rather than later.

    This kind of tax cut is CERTAINLY more justifiable than the extension of the Bush tax cuts which occurred last year. The unemployment problem is almost entirely on the demand side, not the supply side. The reason that businesses aren't hiring has little to do with a lack of money to hire people; on the contrary, many businesses are sitting on top piles of cash and posting record profits. The reason they aren't hiring is because there isn't enough demand for their products/services, due to consumers not having as much cash. If we're going to give a tax cut to anyone in order to stimulate the economy, it should be the poor and middle class.
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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The temporary reduction in the payroll tax has reduced cash inflows to Social Security. It has had an actuarial impact on the program's long-term imbalances. Moreover, the Social Security Disability Insurance program is nearing insolvency. Unless some offset is found to focus on Social Security's long-term future, which is vital given the importance of the program, I don't necessarily disagree with allowing the temporary tax reduction to expire. This, in my opinion, is a clear example where the long-term should take precedence over the short-term.
    But in terms of actual damage to SSI, this is minor. Remember that Congresses and Presidents have basically stolen hundreds of billions from SS replacing them with IOUs. A temporary reduction to money flowing into SS is hardly a big issue compared to the massive gaping hole in SS's balance sheet from decades of treating SS income as general funds. Furthermore, considering how this actually impacts those who spend money faster, it would help the economy over all, which in theory would propagate increased amounts of money flowing into SS later on. The SSDI problem is a big concern though.
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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Do the 46% who pay no federal income tax, want SS to be around to draw upon or not? We know SS is in trouble.
    "Back in 1983, the ceiling was set so the Social Security payroll tax would hit 90 percent of total income covered by Social Security. Today, though, the Social Security payroll tax hits only about 84 percent of total income.

    It went from 90 percent to 84 percent because income inequality has widened. Now a much larger portion of total income goes to the top -- almost twice the share they got back then.

    If we want to return to 90 percent, the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security tax would need to be raised to $180,000. Do that and Social Security's long-term problem is solved."
    How to fix Social Security | Marketplace From American Public Media
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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Its a just a withholding trick you fools.

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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    So now the GOP cares about saving SS...
    Somebody has to pay for our ME wars for the rich that SS helped fund, right?
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    Re: GOP may OK tax increase that Obama hopes to block

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    I believe it is extra-constitutional. For the good of the nation it needs to be phased out.
    Its funny, presidential candidates that support your position usually get less than 1% of the vote. Best of luck to you with your "plan"!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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