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Thread: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

  1. #101
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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's been all of, what, 12 hours since they were captured?
    Saif al-Islam has not been captured. those reports are false.
    Why do we fall?
    So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    Saif al-Islam has not been captured. those reports are false.
    TRIPOLI - A son of Muammar Gaddafi who rebels said they had captured appeared with cheering supporters in Tripoli, giving a boost to forces loyal to the veteran leader trying to fight off insurgents who say they control most of the capital.

    TODAYonline | World | Gaddafi's 'captured' son walks free, taunts rebels


    That is a shame. They'll probably get him and his daddy soon. Hopefully in a few days.

  3. #103
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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    Quote Originally Posted by Opteron View Post
    BBC News - Libya: Clinton condemns rape as weapon of war

    Col. Gaddafi's claim wasn't supported by credible reports and credible news agencies.
    Neither is this. I see no evidence in your source; just hearsay from Hillary Clinton and some Libyan officer who apparently doesn't like Gaddafi.
    This Viagra claim has all the hallmarks of being standard war propaganda carefully crafted for maximum outrage, rather than a factual claim. And until I see some actual evidence supporting this idea, that's what I'm going to assume it is.

    Show me reports of the atrocities committed by the rebels and then I will believe you. There are many reports for the other side. I know you want to condescend the 'good guys and bad guys' notion, but that's how its looking to be based on the facts.
    An example of rebel atrocities: Libyan rebels accused of arbitrary arrests, torture - CNN
    An example of NATO atrocities: NATO cites errant missile in Libya deaths - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

    But I forgot, it's perfectly fine when the "good guys" do it, because it's collateral damage unfortunately necessary to win. Never mind that you'd never excuse Gaddafi doing exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason.

    Still, its remarkable they weren't shot instantly. Do you think Gaddafi would have given them the same privilege? I highly doubt it.
    I have no idea. I don't find it so implausible that Gaddafi might hold some rebels for more than 12 hours before killing them, even if for no other reasons than intelligence gathering and arranging the logistics of it.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 08-23-11 at 03:36 AM.
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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    War crimes are never okay. Sadly, civilian casualties are often unavoidable.

    I wouldn't discount reports of Gadaffi's crimes, however. He has a very long history of brutal repression.

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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Neither is this. I see no evidence in your source; just hearsay from Hillary Clinton and some Libyan officer who apparently doesn't like Gaddafi.
    I posted this report five months ago (3/27/11)
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059373016

    After Libyan woman’s rape claims, methods of Gaddafi government put on display

    TRIPOLI, LIBYA — A woman provided journalists with a glimpse into the methods of the Libyan government Saturday when she was dragged from their hotel by security guards and government minders seeking to stop her from telling her story of abuse. “Look what Gaddafi’s militia have done to me,” she said, raising her long black robe to reveal scratch marks and blood on her thigh. There were also bruises and lacerations on her cheeks, and marks on her hands and ankles indicating that she had been tied up.

    A small group of reporters gathered around to listen. She gave her name as Iman al-Obaidi and recounted how she had been detained by Gaddafi militiamen at a checkpoint two days earlier and raped by 15 of them. “I was tied up. They defecated on me. They urinated on me. They violated my honor,” she said.

    As she spoke, hotel staff members, security guards and government minders closed in on her and began dragging her away. Journalists who tried to protect her were punched, and one, Charles Clover of the Financial Times, was knocked to the ground and kicked. Eventually, the woman — screaming, “They are taking me to jail!” — was hauled outside to an unmarked car, which whisked her away at high speed.
    Source: Washington Post

    Followup: According to a dedicated Facebook page, Iman al-Obaidi somehow escaped Libya and is now in the United States (Asylum Status).
    Iman al-Obaidi Updates | Facebook

    אשכנזי היהודי • Белый Россию

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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Neither is this. I see no evidence in your source; just hearsay from Hillary Clinton and some Libyan officer who apparently doesn't like Gaddafi.
    This Viagra claim has all the hallmarks of being standard war propaganda carefully crafted for maximum outrage, rather than a factual claim. And until I see some actual evidence supporting this idea, that's what I'm going to assume it is.



    An example of rebel atrocities: Libyan rebels accused of arbitrary arrests, torture - CNN
    An example of NATO atrocities: NATO cites errant missile in Libya deaths - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com

    But I forgot, it's perfectly fine when the "good guys" do it, because it's collateral damage unfortunately necessary to win. Never mind that you'd never excuse Gaddafi doing exactly the same thing for exactly the same reason.



    I have no idea. I don't find it so implausible that Gaddafi might hold some rebels for more than 12 hours before killing them, even if for no other reasons than intelligence gathering and arranging the logistics of it.
    Do you honestly believe that there no difference between the NATO member nations and Libya? American war has killed civilians and so has Gaddafi, so Obama and GWB are just as bad as Gaddafi?

  7. #107
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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Do you honestly believe that there no difference between the NATO member nations and Libya?
    If you're asking if it's just as bad when NATO indiscriminately kills civilians to advance its political goals, the answer is yes. Now whether NATO members are as "bad" as Gaddafi's regime overall is more subjective. Granted, they have more redeeming qualities than Gadaffi does (like providing a decent standard of living to their citizens), but on matters of war and peace they're considerably worse. Gaddafi hasn't attacked another country for decades, whereas the United States can't seem to go more than a couple years without doing so.

    American war has killed civilians and so has Gaddafi, so Obama and GWB are just as bad as Gaddafi?
    Correct. Actually on matters of war and peace, Obama and Bush are worse than Gaddafi. They've killed far more civilians in pursuit of their political agenda than Gaddafi ever has. I don't buy the argument that they have the moral high ground because they didn't "intend" to kill civilians, because this is A) a subjective assessment of their motives based on preconceived notions that they're the "good guys", and B) irrelevant to the victims.

    I don't have a problem with humanitarian peacekeeping missions that don't pick sides in internal civil conflicts, in parts of the world where they can ACTUALLY be useful. I have a big problem with the United States deposing its enemies under the guise of humanitarianism, when it has such a horrible track record backing unsavory regimes, especially in the Arab world. Hosni Mubarak had the full backing of the United States just a few months ago, and the House of Saud still does...so forgive me if I'm skeptical that the US government has suddenly had a change of heart and wants to bring freedom and democracy and human rights to the Arab world.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 08-23-11 at 02:16 PM.
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  8. #108
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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT
    War crimes are never okay. Sadly, civilian casualties are often unavoidable.
    How to avoid civilian casualties:
    Step 1: Don't fire thousand pound bombs into populated areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf
    Do you honestly believe that there no difference between the NATO member nations and Libya? American war has killed civilians and so has Gaddafi, so Obama and GWB are just as bad as Gaddafi?
    The massacres due to NATO bombings aside, the US has quite a long history of supporting those who do their dirty work for them. In this case, it is the rebels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar
    I don't buy the argument that they have the moral high ground because they didn't "intend" to kill civilians
    When you know that an area is populated with civilians, and you drop a bomb on it, your intent is obvious, regardless of how you rationalize it. Dropping bombs on cities is intentionally killing civilians, even if you label them "collateral casualties".
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 08-23-11 at 02:30 PM.
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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    I think you guys have misunderstood what's going on here. NATO is simply enforcing a no fly zone because of internal crimes (i.e. Gaddafi killing his own people). The NATO no fly zone is not supporting the rebels. It was only meant to prevent a genocide. Yes, the no fly zone benefits the rebels, but when Gadaffi's forces turned the civil war around and the rebels were retreating NATO didn't change tactics.

    EU prepares for worst after Gaddafi 'genocide' threats | EurActiv


    The fact is, Gaddafi would have killed every single person who wasn't a loyalist. He doesn't care about ruling people. He cares about making money from the Libyan oil fields and losing his control over those fields. The people wanted him to step down from that power.

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    Re: Fighting Erupts in Tripoli

    "Hundreds of Qaddafi supporters took over Green Square after truck loads of militiamen arrived and opened fire on protesters, scattering them from the square. Residents said they now feared even to emerge from their houses.
    “It was an obscene amount of gunfire,” said the witness. “They were strafing these people. People were running in every direction.” The police stood by and watched, the witness said, as the militiamen, still shooting, chased after the protesters. "

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/world/africa/22libya.html?_r=1&hp

    I don't understand how you can confuse intentionally shooting unarmed, noncombants with collateral damage. I'd say the revolution the Libyan rebels are engaging in is a natural and justified response to oppressive and coercive government. Of course I'd consider the Libyan government the bad guys in this situation. Revolutions are necessary, and the people are behind the revolution. The rebels might not be have a future vision for Libya that is perfect, but I don't care. I am not judging the rebels. I just know a government is being coercive and I support overthrowing those governments as a general rule.

    Here is another article:


    "Members of Libya’s mission to the United Nations renounced Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi on Monday, calling him a genocidal war criminal responsible for mass shootings of demonstrators protesting against his four decades in power. They called upon him to resign. "

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/wo...ations.html?hp

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