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Thread: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    It's not a straw man. People on this board DID show that they had no problem with Texas denying a foreign national certain rights. Do you know what a straw man is?
    Sure...= your argument. Texas gave that citizen EVERY right any other American would get. They gave them FAR more rights than any mejican would get. He was arrested, tried and convicted because he raped and murdered teenagers. You and people like you cling to this idea that his rights were violated because he came to America 30 years earlier as a three year old and the embassy wasnt notified...even though he had lived in the country since he could walk. And THAT equates to hikers in Iran. You using some convuluted moronic argument to compare the two cases = straw man.

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    If he was denied legal council from his country, then that's hardly a fair trial. The rest of your argument is nothing but a boring diatribe.
    He received legal counsel. The state and US supreme courts disagree with you that his rights were violated. Probably because they figure since he came here at THREE years old and lived in this country as a US citizen for decades and his birthplace wasnt even an ISSUE until he was going to be executed and since he recieved a fair trial and legal counsel his arguments, like yours, are merely self serving bull****.

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Sure...= your argument. Texas gave that citizen EVERY right any other American would get.
    And Iran gave those people every other right an Iranian would get within the Iranian legal framework. Do you have reason to believe otherwise?

    They gave them FAR more rights than any mejican would get.
    In Mexico? Different legal framework. So that's questionable.

    He was arrested, tried and convicted because he raped and murdered teenagers.
    And these people were arrested, tried and convicted because they were spying.

    You and people like you cling to this idea that his rights were violated because he came to America 30 years earlier as a three year old and the embassy wasnt notified...
    When he came, how he got here, who he lived with and the last person he did the dirty with are irrelevant. He was a Mexican national.

    even though he had lived in the country since he could walk. And THAT equates to hikers in Iran.
    Here I'll make it simple for you again:

    Being in the country for X period of time, does not allow a country to deny foreign nationals legal council from their governments. In both these cases people were denied legal council from their governments. As Texas did not allow a foreign national to have the council of his government, then the US can't demand that other countries follow international law when the same situation arises with American nationals abroad. In essence, the US has shot itself its own moral foot.

    You using some convuluted moronic argument to compare the two cases = straw man.
    Do you know what a straw man is?
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    He received legal counsel.
    Do you know how to read? Or do you just make things up as you go? Here: He was given Texas' legal council and DENIED his embassy's council which he had a right to.

    The state and US supreme courts disagree with you that his rights were violated.
    The case never went to the Supreme Court. So the only people who agreed was the state of Texas. Not much of a surprise.

    Probably because they figure since he came here at THREE years old and lived in this country as a US citizen for decades and his birthplace wasnt even an ISSUE until he was going to be executed and since he recieved a fair trial and legal counsel his arguments, like yours, are merely self serving bull****.
    When you start arguments from ignorance, you end up with silly statements like the above.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 08-21-11 at 02:12 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Do you know how to read? Or do you just make things up as you go? Here: He was given Texas' legal council and DENIED his embassy's council which he had a right to.
    The case never went to the Supreme Court.
    When you start arguments from ignorance, you end up with silly statements like the above.
    Quick...no Google. What was his name? What were the circumstances of the case? Before it became about the death sentence did you even know about it? Pathetic. Oh yes...its the VERY same thing asd the Iranian case. Except of course...were the Iranian hikers denied access to the US embassy? Adequate legal counsel? Your arguments are pathetic. I dont expect MUCH from you...but...this?

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Quick...no Google. What was his name?
    Humberto Garcia.

    What were the circumstances of the case?
    Accused of killing a few kids.

    Before it became about the death sentence did you even know about it?
    Before 9/11 happen, did you know about it? Stupid question.

    Pathetic. Oh yes...its the VERY same thing asd the Iranian case.
    The underlying legal and logical consequences? Yes. They're identical.

    Except of course...were the Iranian hikers denied access to the US embassy?
    As there is no US embassy in Iran? Yes.

    Adequate legal counsel?
    That's the argument you've made. If they were given adequate legal counsel within the Iranian legal framework, what are you crying about?

    Your arguments are pathetic. I dont expect MUCH from you...but...this?
    Yawn.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 08-21-11 at 02:20 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Humberto Garcia.
    Accused of killing a few kids.
    Before 9/11 happen, did you know about it? Stupid question.
    The underlying legal and logical consequences? Yes. They're identical.
    As there is no US embassy in Iran? Yes.
    That's the argument you've made. If they weren't given adequate legal counsel, what are you crying about?
    Yawn.
    Lived in the US as a citizen as a TWO year old. Arrested, tried, and convicted like thousands of average American citizens that commit crimes. Spoke English. Understood the law. Understood brutally raping a child and then bashing her skull in with a rock was a crime. Recieved legal counsel. Recieved a fair trial. Legal loophole seized on by anti-deathpenalty types who dont give a **** about the individual or his crimes. Those same individuals were pushing not for an overturning of the conviction but of a commuting of the sentence. Thems the facts and that case has no bearing on the case in Iran. US diplomats have in fact met with the hikers. OH...and as for the embassy being notified...we...the US government, the hikers...the public...we all KNOW and knew before the trial didnt we? And if there be no actual embassy in Iran...again...your argument fails at every level. So...the relative bearing from one case to the other is...nothing. You know it...you just pretend your strawman is at least a tin man.

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Lived in the US as a citizen as a TWO year old.
    Yes, and had we found him before he killed people, he would have been deported and the time he spent in the US wouldn't have mattered, he'd be a Mexican national in need of deportation.

    Arrested, tried, and convicted like thousands of average American citizens that commit crimes.
    Those American citizens didn't have the right to legal council from Mexico. This guy did. Do you not understand that yet? You like repeating yourself a lot.

    Spoke English.
    My wife speaks Dutch. It doesn't mean Sint Maarten can deny her legal council from the US if she ever broke a law there.

    Understood the law.
    As do most people who break it or follow it.

    Understood brutally raping a child and then bashing her skull in with a rock was a crime. Recieved legal counsel.
    As these people did.

    Recieved a fair trial.
    Do you have any evidence to show that the Americans in Iran didn't? If they were denied legal counsel from their governments, then obviously they did not.

    Legal loophole seized on by anti-deathpenalty types who dont give a **** about the individual or his crimes.
    Opinion.
    Those same individuals were pushing not for an overturning of the conviction but of a commuting of the sentence.
    You can't ask much more than that from the great state of Texas.

    Thems the facts and that case has no bearing on the case in Iran.
    Do you know how to read? This is getting tedious.

    US diplomats have in fact met with the hikers.
    That's not legal counsel.

    OH...and as for the embassy being notified...we...the US government, the hikers...the public...we all KNOW and knew before the trial didnt we?
    What? You're losing it.

    And if there be no actual embassy in Iran...again...your argument fails at every level.
    Lmao, okay this is how I know you have no clue what it is you're talking about. You've just managed to agree that to not provide foreign counsel is a denial of certain legal rights.

    So...the relative bearing from one case to the other is...nothing. You know it...you just pretend your strawman is at least a tin man.
    What? Mack, you're starting to lose it. Remember? I'm the one arguing that a denial of legal counsel from one's embassy is a denial of rights. Not you.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Yes, and had we found him before he killed people, he would have been deported and the time he spent in the US wouldn't have mattered, he'd be a Mexican national in need of deportation.
    Those American citizens didn't have the right to legal council from Mexico. This guy did. Do you not understand that yet? You like repeating yourself a lot.
    My wife speaks Dutch. It doesn't mean Sint Maarten can deny her legal council from the US if she ever broke a law there.
    As do most people who break it or follow it.
    s these people did.
    Do you have any evidence to show that the Americans in Iran didn't? If they were denied legal counsel from their governments, then obviously they did not.

    inion.


    You can't ask much more than that from the great state of Texas.



    Do you know how to read? This is getting tedious.



    That's not legal counsel.



    What? You're losing it.



    Lmao, okay this is how I know you have no clue what it is you're talking about. You've just managed to agree that to not provide foreign counsel is a denial of certain legal rights.



    What? Mack, you're starting to lose it. Remember? I'm the one arguing that a denial of legal counsel from one's embassy is a denial of rights. Not you.
    You skpped the fail pail and went to s afail feedbag...and STILLO cling to your completely unrelated and wrong argument. Well...one cant help but admire your tenacity even though it is STILL couched in your stupidity. DO the two cases relate in ANY way? No. Are the two judicial systems even COMPARABLE. No. Yet you cling to this notion that a man that lived in America since the age of TWO, arrested, tried, and convicted (and given a fair trial with adequate legal representation with appeals) for the intentional rape and murder of a child while he was a grown man SOMEHOW in your mind equates to hikers allegeldy spying OR lost, arrested and convicted by a fundamentalist regime that hangs people for being gay.

    I dont know if they are spies or just stupid (as I said in my first post in this thread). Regardless...they have been tried and sentenced for their stupidity. You are the one foolish enough to think there is ANY correlation between the two trials. Thats the scary part. Its not just ooops...a mistake...you are actually stupid enough to BELIEVE it.

  10. #40
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    Re: American hikers get sentenced to 8 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    You skpped the fail pail and went to s afail feedbag...and STILLO cling to your completely unrelated and wrong argument. Well...one cant help but admire your tenacity even though it is STILL couched in your stupidity. DO the two cases relate in ANY way? No. Are the two judicial systems even COMPARABLE. No. Yet you cling to this notion that a man that lived in America since the age of TWO, arrested, tried, and convicted (and given a fair trial with adequate legal representation with appeals) for the intentional rape and murder of a child while he was a grown man SOMEHOW in your mind equates to hikers allegeldy spying OR lost, arrested and convicted by a fundamentalist regime that hangs people for being gay.
    Straw man and red herrings make your argument look really weak.

    I dont know if they are spies or just stupid (as I said in my first post in this thread). Regardless...they have been tried and sentenced for their stupidity. You are the one foolish enough to think there is ANY correlation between the two trials. Thats the scary part. Its not just ooops...a mistake...you are actually stupid enough to BELIEVE it.
    Of course there is a correlation. You keep going back to the facts of the case as if they mattered at all. The international legal framework has to be followed by all. If it isn't then countries who don't follow it, have no right to deny that others do. Do you not understand that yet? Or are you frothing so much you can't understand the simple inconsistency in your argument? How typical of VanceMack. Get utterly destroyed in an argument and then proceed to call everyone stupid. You sound like my daughter when she doesn't get Dora.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 08-21-11 at 03:24 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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