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Thread: New DHS rules cancel deportations

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What part of Mission # 1 didn't you understand?
    Which part of "Straw man" don't you understand?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
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    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    It's priority number 1. I can defend the position by appeal to principle and by appeal to economics.
    Please, give that a shot.

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Please, give that a shot.
    Any group that forms a nation reserves unto itself the authority to decide who shall join the nation. The integrity of the group is diminished when they relinquish control over group definition and allow outsiders to decide whether they will join the group and impose their presence on the group.

    Has the US Government, as the representative of the people, decided to review the applications of these illegal aliens and admit them into the body politic or has that admissions decision been turned over to anyone who wants to cross the border and await an amnesty?

    As to finance, the National Research Council has calculated the net present value cost of each illegal alien without a high school level of education actually makes the US $122,000 poorer over the lifetime of that illegal alien, which is a net calculation, meaning that all of the value that they create for themselves and their employers is overshadowed by the costs that they impose on the rest of us, netting out to $122,000 of costs. We're actually better off without them here. The costs directed at subsidizing them could be allocated to other social transfers that citizens find desirable. This is the very reason that we put so much effort into insuring that American citizens increase their human capital levels and not stop their education at mid-high school. High school drop-outs require heavy levels of subsidy from the rest of society, greater in fact than the cost of illegal aliens, for illegal aliens don't qualify for a host of social welfare transfer schemes that citizens qualify for. If these illegal aliens ever qualify for amnesty, then that $122,000 lifetime cost to society will sky-rocket upwards as these new permanent residents and citizens qualify for a whole host of programs that are reserved for permanent residents and citizens.

    $122,000 per illegal * 20,000,000 illegals= $2,440,000,000,000

    Two and a half trillion dollars of money that could be spent on the needs of American citizens is being spent on the needs of illegal aliens.

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Any group that forms a nation reserves unto itself the authority to decide who shall join the nation. The integrity of the group is diminished when they relinquish control over group definition and allow outsiders to decide whether they will join the group and impose their presence on the group.

    Has the US Government, as the representative of the people, decided to review the applications of these illegal aliens and admit them into the body politic or has that admissions decision been turned over to anyone who wants to cross the border and await an amnesty?
    That's just an argument for why the government should consider immigration enforcement a priority, not a higher priority than everything else. IMO, sure, it'd be nice if we could magically have total control over who is in the US. But that's a pipe dream. A pipe dream that we could blow our entire GDP on every year and still never accomplish. So it's about weighing money spent on it vs other priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    As to finance, the National Research Council has calculated the net present value cost of each illegal alien without a high school level of education actually makes the US $122,000 poorer over the lifetime of that illegal alien, which is a net calculation, meaning that all of the value that they create for themselves and their employers is overshadowed by the costs that they impose on the rest of us, netting out to $122,000 of costs. We're actually better off without them here. The costs directed at subsidizing them could be allocated to other social transfers that citizens find desirable. This is the very reason that we put so much effort into insuring that American citizens increase their human capital levels and not stop their education at mid-high school. High school drop-outs require heavy levels of subsidy from the rest of society, greater in fact than the cost of illegal aliens, for illegal aliens don't qualify for a host of social welfare transfer schemes that citizens qualify for. If these illegal aliens ever qualify for amnesty, then that $122,000 lifetime cost to society will sky-rocket upwards as these new permanent residents and citizens qualify for a whole host of programs that are reserved for permanent residents and citizens.

    $122,000 per illegal * 20,000,000 illegals= $2,440,000,000,000

    Two and a half trillion dollars of money that could be spent on the needs of American citizens is being spent on the needs of illegal aliens.
    False. Here is what the National Research Council actually found:

    In one table, the NRC report computes the net present value of immigrants is computed according to their years of education. According to the table, the NPV of immigrants with less than a high school education is -$13,000, which means that, over their lifetimes, they will impose a net cost of $13,000 on the US in today's dollars. The NPV of an immigrant with more than a high school education is $198,000--this large positive sum explains why immigration overall is considered a net economic plus for the US despite the arrival of so many immigrants with less than a high school education.

    NRC on Immigration - Migration News | Migration Dialogue

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Border protection and national defense are Mission #1.
    Is that in the Constitution? I missed the part where it said that border protectionwas Mission #1.

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Any group that forms a nation reserves unto itself the authority to decide who shall join the nation. The integrity of the group is diminished when they relinquish control over group definition and allow outsiders to decide whether they will join the group and impose their presence on the group.

    Has the US Government, as the representative of the people, decided to review the applications of these illegal aliens and admit them into the body politic or has that admissions decision been turned over to anyone who wants to cross the border and await an amnesty?

    As to finance, the National Research Council has calculated the net present value cost of each illegal alien without a high school level of education actually makes the US $122,000 poorer over the lifetime of that illegal alien, which is a net calculation, meaning that all of the value that they create for themselves and their employers is overshadowed by the costs that they impose on the rest of us, netting out to $122,000 of costs. We're actually better off without them here. The costs directed at subsidizing them could be allocated to other social transfers that citizens find desirable. This is the very reason that we put so much effort into insuring that American citizens increase their human capital levels and not stop their education at mid-high school. High school drop-outs require heavy levels of subsidy from the rest of society, greater in fact than the cost of illegal aliens, for illegal aliens don't qualify for a host of social welfare transfer schemes that citizens qualify for. If these illegal aliens ever qualify for amnesty, then that $122,000 lifetime cost to society will sky-rocket upwards as these new permanent residents and citizens qualify for a whole host of programs that are reserved for permanent residents and citizens.

    $122,000 per illegal * 20,000,000 illegals= $2,440,000,000,000

    Two and a half trillion dollars of money that could be spent on the needs of American citizens is being spent on the needs of illegal aliens.
    Well,there's one study, and it only addresses undocumented aliens who aren't highschool graduates. There are many other studies which show that illegal immigration is a net positive for the economy, e.g. http://www.cfr.org/content/publicati...ationCSR26.pdf

    Most of the negative aspects noted by the NRC could be resolved by passing immigration reform which would greatly reduce the shadow economy.

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    That's just an argument for why the government should consider immigration enforcement a priority, not a higher priority than everything else. IMO, sure, it'd be nice if we could magically have total control over who is in the US. But that's a pipe dream. A pipe dream that we could blow our entire GDP on every year and still never accomplish. So it's about weighing money spent on it vs other priorities.
    Operation Wetback


    Operation Wetback was a 1954 operation by the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) to remove illegal immigrants, mostly Mexican nationals from the southwestern United States.

    Some 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions per day. By the end of July, over 50,000 illegal aliens were caught in the two states. An estimated 488,000 illegal aliens are believed to have left voluntarily, for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimated that 500,000 to 700,000 had left Texas of their own accord. To discourage illicit re-entry, buses and trains took many deportees deep within Mexican territory before releasing them.


    If they could achieve that level of success in 1954 with their crude technology, then we should have no problem in rounding up 20,000,000 foreign invaders and deporting them out of the country.


    False. Here is what the National Research Council actually found:
    You're going to base your refutation on the assessment offered by a pro-illegal alien advocacy group? Why not go right to the source instead of a biased organization?

    Here is the National Research Council report, published in 1997. Here, I'll even save you the trouble and extract the table which provides the conclusion:

    nrcimmigrantcost.jpg

    Here is an inflation calculator. The $89,000 cost to society was calculated in 1996 dollars. The corresponding value in 2010 is $122,391.64

    What number did I use in my post? I recall that I wrote the following: "netting out to $122,000 of costs."

    Well, would you look at that, what I wrote is exactly what the NRC calculated costs amount to in 2010.

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Operation Wetback was a 1954 operation by the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) to remove illegal immigrants, mostly Mexican nationals from the southwestern United States.

    Some 750 agents targeted agricultural areas with a goal of 1,000 apprehensions per day. By the end of July, over 50,000 illegal aliens were caught in the two states. An estimated 488,000 illegal aliens are believed to have left voluntarily, for fear of being apprehended. By September, 80,000 had been taken into custody in Texas, and the INS estimated that 500,000 to 700,000 had left Texas of their own accord. To discourage illicit re-entry, buses and trains took many deportees deep within Mexican territory before releasing them.


    If they could achieve that level of success in 1954 with their crude technology, then we should have no problem in rounding up 20,000,000 foreign invaders and deporting them out of the country.
    Dude, we're currently deporting people at about 6 times the rate they did during "Operation Wetback".

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    You're going to base your refutation on the assessment offered by a pro-illegal alien advocacy group? Why not go right to the source instead of a biased organization?

    Here is the National Research Council report, published in 1997. Here, I'll even save you the trouble and extract the table which provides the conclusion:

    nrcimmigrantcost.jpg

    Here is an inflation calculator. The $89,000 cost to society was calculated in 1996 dollars. The corresponding value in 2010 is $122,391.64

    What number did I use in my post? I recall that I wrote the following: "netting out to $122,000 of costs."

    Well, would you look at that, what I wrote is exactly what the NRC calculated costs amount to in 2010.
    Uh, it says right on there that my number is correct.... -$13,000.... You're looking at the "immigrants themselves" row, but pretending that is the net figure. It isn't. The net figures are exactly what I said they were: -$13,000 w/o a high school degree, +$198,000 w/ a high school degree.

    Also, there are only just over 10 million undocumented immigrants and a good portion of them have high school degrees, which is why the exact report you are citing to says they are a net positive.

    Total fail on so many levels...

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    nearly a third of illegal-immigrant adults have less than a ninth-grade education, and only slightly more than half graduated from high school. In fact, more than one of every five adult high-school dropouts in the U.S. is an illegal immigrant.

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    Re: New DHS rules cancel deportations

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    nearly a third of illegal-immigrant adults have less than a ninth-grade education, and only slightly more than half graduated from high school. In fact, more than one of every five adult high-school dropouts in the U.S. is an illegal immigrant.
    Ok, so lets combine your figures with Riverdad's source. You're saying more than half of undocumented immigrants have high school degrees. So, that means there are about 5 million undocumented immigrants without high school degrees and 5 million with. Riverdad's source says that every undocumented immigrant without a high school degree costs us $13,000, but every one with a high school degree benefits us by $198,000. So, the ones without high school degrees cost us 5m * $13,000 = -$65m, but the ones with high school degrees benefit us 5m * $198,000 = + $990m. So according to the sources the conservatives are providing on this thread, the net economic effect of undocumented immigrants on the US would be a benefit of $925,000,000.

    That is somewhat lower than some sources estimate. I've seen estimates of the economic benefit as high as $1.7 trillion. But either way, we're all in the same ballpark: massive economic benefit.
    Last edited by teamosil; 08-20-11 at 02:12 AM.

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