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Thread: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Then continue to stop pipelines, stop building dams, stop nuclear plants, and stop drilling for oil. You're stopping it all and then wonder why your prices go up and availability goes down, and all the while protesting that businesses are moving overseas. Meanwhile you mire yourselves in unsustainable debt.

    Do you see a healthy future in any of this?
    Have you ever read the Lorax?
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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What that research did was pop the pompous declarations that GCM were science, that the science was settled and that there was nothing to debate. Well, those were indefensible positions for GCM were not accounting for this phenomenon, the science clearly was not settled, and there was plenty room to debate many aspects of climate science. The fact that we know how individual processes work doesn't mean that GCM were accurately modeling the system. They couldn't accurately model the system because the scientists writing the code clearly didn't understand how the system worked for they were completely ignorant of a major subsystem in the climate.
    The models are the product of the best science on the subject and nobody has ever suggested that climate research is somehow complete, or that the climate models have been perfected.

    So, why are you bringing any of this up?
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The models are the product of the best science on the subject and nobody has ever suggested that climate research is somehow complete, or that the climate models have been perfected.

    So, why are you bringing any of this up?
    You think that I'm arguing some strawman?

    The Environmental Protection Agency counts as an important player? Don't they?

    December 7, 2009



    The question of the science is settled. The debate that should be taking place now is how to address this challenge and take advantage of the opportunity it offers.


    I'd be crucified if I did in my professional life what I see many climate scientists doing in their professional lives.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What that research did was pop the pompous declarations that GCM were science, that the science was settled and that there was nothing to debate. Well, those were indefensible positions for GCM were not accounting for this phenomenon, the science clearly was not settled, and there was plenty room to debate many aspects of climate science. The fact that we know how individual processes work doesn't mean that GCM were accurately modeling the system. They couldn't accurately model the system because the scientists writing the code clearly didn't understand how the system worked for they were completely ignorant of a major subsystem in the climate.
    We're all aware that climate science has the difficulty of not having a proper control group - we have only one Earth. Everyone understands that models are models and include uncertainty. So what? I don't think you'll find many scientists who think every detail and variable has been perfectly described. Furthermore, it's ridiculous to characterize cloud formation as something climatologists and modelers were "completely ignorant of."
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Which country do you believe is better equipped to address the consequences which arise from various forms of pollution, the US or Mexico?
    Well, I have some misgivings about what "pollution" might entail... but I'll bite. I'll go with the US, generally.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    You think that I'm arguing some strawman?

    The Environmental Protection Agency counts as an important player? Don't they?

    December 7, 2009



    The question of the science is settled. The debate that should be taking place now is how to address this challenge and take advantage of the opportunity it offers.


    I'd be crucified if I did in my professional life what I see many climate scientists doing in their professional lives.
    If the question is "Is atmospheric carbon dioxide a substance which threatens the health and welfare of Americans," (the standard for EPA regulation) the answer is yes, and the science IS settled. I feel like you're off your game lately! We don't need to know the dynamics of cosmic-ray induced ionization to know CO2 affects climate.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Well, I have some misgivings about what "pollution" might entail... but I'll bite. I'll go with the US, generally.
    Mexico had a higher GDP/capita wealth than did the US back in the colonial era. We surpassed Mexico because our annual economic growth rate was about 1 percentage point higher than theirs and this effect compounded over time.

    The policy problems here are 1.) people think poverty sucks, 2.) people want jobs, 3.) the pollution control measures reduce economic growth.

    The philosophical question is how much sacrifice does the present generation endure in order to make life easier for a future wealthier generation and if we create conditions today which make the environmental problems of the future worse, will the conditions we create today, which are wealth enhancing, create enough compounded wealth over time to offset the increased environmental problems of the future.

    We know from the world of today that wealthier societies are better able to bear the burden of repairing the environmental damage that has been created by industrialization.

    Lastly, my personal impression is that most environmentalist are economic illiterates and they don't realize the real economic costs of the policy solutions that they're advancing. Not all people mind you, but a whole lot of them. What these policies will produce is kind of like the economic landscape we see before us today, at best, and quite likely higher levels of inflation (energy costs get more expensive faster than they would otherwise) and lower levels of job creation, lower levels of wealth creation, more fiscal imbalances between spending and revenue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The philosophical question is how much sacrifice does the present generation endure in order to make life easier for a future wealthier generation and if we create conditions today which make the environmental problems of the future worse, will the conditions we create today, which are wealth enhancing, create enough compounded wealth over time to offset the increased environmental problems of the future.

    We know from the world of today that wealthier societies are better able to bear the burden of repairing the environmental damage that has been created by industrialization.
    It would seem that you assume economic growth is a permanent condition. I think infinite growth on a finite planet is an impossibility.


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    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    It would seem that you assume economic growth is a permanent condition. I think infinite growth on a finite planet is an impossibility.

    Sent from my SGH-T589 using Tapatalk
    There are hard, physical limits to human knowledge on SGH-T569? Wow, I feel for you guys. Here on Earth, that's the planet I live on, we manage to make ourselves wealthier by doing things in smarter ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    There are hard, physical limits to human knowledge on SGH-T569? Wow, I feel for you guys. Here on Earth, that's the planet I live on, we manage to make ourselves wealthier by doing things in smarter ways.
    Yes, my lovely techno-utopia is completely dependent on fossil fuels. Doesn't mean I'm going to live in a unibomber shack. Not yet anyway.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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