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Thread: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

  1. #351
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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    So here I will paraphrase a hypothesis, as professed rather abrasively by RiverDad: It is NOT POSSIBLE to strictly adhere to evolution theory as currently understood without acknowledging SIGNIFICANT racial differences in general cognitive ability, produced by GENETIC factors.
    You go too far. Liberal creationists deny that the hereditarian hypothesis isn't even worthy of consideration, that it can't possible function as a mechanism which explains what is happening. That's why they're creationists.

    I'm not saying that you must accept that such variance in intelligence MUST result, I'm saying that you have to accept that this is an entirely legitimate question, that it follows logically from a sound premise, and as my last post argued, that it in fact should be the null hypothesis if you wish to avoid wearing the label of creationist. This still leaves plenty of room for debate on determining how to explain the variance we measure while not rejecting the body of science that has developed around evolutionary principles.


    2. Even having accepted standard IQ tests as a fair assessment of general cognitive ability, several sources (provided by mbig and RiverDad) of mean racial IQ data show a relatively small range of variance.

    Jan Klein and Naoyuki Takahata
    put it better than I can:


    Under these circumstances, to claim that the genetic differences between the human races are trivial is more a political statement than a scientific argument. Trivial by what criterion?


    For example, The highest performing group cited (Ashkanazi Jews) and lowest (black) differed by only about 2 standard deviations. While that is significant if true, it allows us only to say with certainty that Jews outperform African-Americans on IQ tests.

    This is just wordsmanship that you're engaged in. Defining a 2 SD variance as being small and inconsequential is a bold move that might convince some people who are not up to speed on the details of what exactly it is that you're talking about, but a 2 SD variance is not "a small range of variance" when used by statisticians and scientists. You're making a political statement.

    It should be clear that the case for race-dependent genetic differences that affect general cognitive ability has not been conclusively made.
    I'm sorry that I gave you the impression that I was setting out to conclusively make the case. If I wanted to set out on that task I'd have to marshall more than 2,000 papers I have sitting on my hard drive. What I was doing was answering challenges from liberal creationists. I enjoy doing that. I find pleasure in their presenting an objection that they think closes down the debate and I come back and undermine their rejection. This back and forth display is available for all to follow over the two threads that hosted this discussion.

    Therefore, all of you "liberals" painted by the broad brush of RiverDad can rest assured that adherence to evolution theory DOES NOT require belief in a race-associated genetic predisposition for high or low cognitive function.
    That's funny to read. You're taking more authority onto yourself than is warranted considering that this topic seems to be entirely new to you. All you're doing is engaging in a political show which seeks to give cover to liberal creationists to continue on in their ways of rejecting evolution as being applicable to humans and to human intelligence. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with engaging in political polemics, but please drop the act of your position being based on your thorough review of the evidence - this is a discussion board, for pete's sake, and you've just skimmed the literal surface of all the material from a number of disparate disciplines which produce mutually reinforcing evidence in support of the hereditarian position. You have not established any grounds to justify speaking with such reassuring authority.

  2. #352
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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, I don't think that is it. But how do you trust some one to make reasonable decisions when they discount science.
    Because leadership skills are the most important skill necessary to be the President. It's not like we're hiring Presidents for their science background. I doubt anyone would shutdown science merely because they believe in something different. I believe that kind of thinking is a bit paranoid.
    Last edited by American; 08-23-11 at 03:33 AM.
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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Methinks that, as usual, RiverDad is jousting with a strawman. Who are these "liberal creationists" (silly term) who outright reject the possibility of of a genetic component to intelligence? Clearly there is evidence for both a genetic and behavioral component. Clearly some of us would like to believe that it's more behavioral than genetic, and one of us has convinced himself that it isn't. Hopefully the remainder of the 2000 (!) papers on his hard drive are more convincing than the one's he's chosen to present so far.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Because leadership skills are the most important skill necessary to be the President. It's not like we're hiring Presidents for their science background. I doubt anyone would shutdown science merely because they believe in something different. I believe that kind of thinking is a bit paranoid.
    Personally I would rather that the President NOT have good leadership skills if he doesn't have the intelligence to lead in the right direction. Many of Perry's stances indicate that he's got an underpowered motor under the hood and it's not hitting on all cylinders.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Personally I would rather that the President NOT have good leadership skills if he doesn't have the intelligence to lead in the right direction. Many of Perry's stances indicate that he's got an underpowered motor under the hood and it's not hitting on all cylinders.

    You have to be pretty far off the deep end, even for the far right, to deny the science behind both evolution and climate change. As Huntsman pointed out, it is not a winning position for the GOP. I wish I could say it pains me to see them find out the hard way!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    I guess having a little knowledge of actual science really does distinguish him from all the other GOP candidates. Hilarious, sad and embarrassing all at once.
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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    [/SIZE]

    Read more: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy' - Darren Samuelsohn - POLITICO.com

    "To be clear. I believe in evolution and trust scientists on global warming. Call me crazy," Huntsman

    I have already contributed to his campaign once, and this makes me want to send the guy another check. However, since reason and sanity are not virtues Republican Primary Voters want in a candidate this year, I don't think this will help him out any.
    Huntsman is supporting the establishment of religion.

    Global warming is a hoax.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Huntsman is supporting the establishment of religion.

    Global warming is a hoax.
    Ahh, the religion of the denier. So clear, so contrary to scientific consensus. But, faith works that way for some.


    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Come to think of it, just what is IQ, anyway? Is it really just a measure of one ability?
    It measures one's ability to take IQ tests.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    It measures one's ability to take IQ tests.
    There are real problems with the IQ test, so I'd be a little skeptical on people drawing too many conclusons based on them alone.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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