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Thread: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    If you have a rational critique of the experiment I haven't been able to identify it.
    That's because debating you when the issue is science is like talking to a wall. I gave you a link to a critique of the Abecedarian Early Intervention Project study which demonstrated that the intervention cohort was stacked. Here, I'll quote it directly:


    Four cohorts were recruited over a 5-year period, but the experimental group in Cohorts 3 and 4 produced unusually high scores on the Bayley MDI. Differences between experimental and control groups at 60 months of age were comparable to differences at 6 months of age.


    What you're seeing at age 21 was also seen at ages 5 and 12 and also at the beginning of the study.

    The bottom line is that they effectively proved that intensive, high-qualit child care from infancy can and does improve cognitive ability and it also has a number of quantifiable benefits
    Let's toss this around for a bit. For the sake of this discussion I'll pretend that what you want to be true is indeed true. OK, let's say that early intervention works. Let's also pretend that this study wasn't focused on borderline retarded children but children in the normal cognitive range.

    Here's my question to you - If Early Childhood Education effectively improves outcomes during childhood and those outcomes are stable into adulthood, then what? Tell me what you propose if this magic world could be brought about. Give me your policy wishlist.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig
    There's Plenty posted in my last and the previous post of mine in this string (you necessarily Ignored) linked to in it.

    And one could post infinitely more.
    But I see you want to play word/mb games, when again, even IQ deniers acknowledge the difference, only challenge the reasons for them.

    Somewhat like the GW debate debate is basically unchallenged, just the AGW part.
    Similarly Racial IQ is also not really challenged, just the reasons for the differences.
    But you want to Bust Balls by Burden shifting where there is no debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    It would seem you aren't interested in figuring out the real causes behind the differences you purport.
    It would seem you are no longer contesting my point after what you were really doing was exposed in my last.
    Not that your Burden wasn't Already met by me in This string and last few posts.
    ie MANY studies cited in the Wiki Link I gave, in addition to the now deleted data I posted... as well as my previous Jensen/Rushton post in THIS string. I linked back to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki 'Race and IQ' previously Linked; Footnotes ARE Studies/references
    US test scores

    Rushton and Jensen (2005 and 2010) write that in the United States, self-identified blacks and whites have been the subjects of the greatest number of studies. They state that the black-white IQ difference is about 15 to 18 points or 1 to 1.1 standard deviations (SDs). 15% to 20% of the black IQ distribution exceeds the white median IQ, so many blacks obtain scores above the white average. The black-white IQ difference is largest on those tests that best represent the general intelligence factor g.[19][23] The 1996 APA report "Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns" and the 1994 statement "Mainstream Science on Intelligence" gave more or less Similar estimates.[4][59]

    Roth et al. (2001) in a review of the results of a total of 6,246,729 participants on other tests of cognitive ability or aptitude found a black-white gap of 1.1 SD. Consistent results were found for college and university application tests such as the Scholastic Aptitude Test (N = 2.4 million) and Graduate Record Examination (N = 2.3 million), as well as for tests of job applicants in corporate sections (N = 0.5 million) and in the military (N = 0.4 million).[60]

    A 2006 study by Dickens and Flynn estimated that the black-white gap closed by about 5 or 6 IQ points between 1972 and 2002,[61] which would be a reduction by about one-third. However this was challenged by Rushton & Jensen who claim the gap remains stable.[62] Murray in a 2006 study agree with Dickens and Flynn that there has been a narrowing of the gap, "Dickens' and Flynn's estimate of 3–6 IQ points from a base of about 16–18 points is a useful, though provisional, starting point". But he argues that this has stalled and that there has been no further narrowing for people born after the late 1970s.[63] He found similar results in a 2007 study.[64]

    The IQ distributions of other racial and ethnic groups in the United States are less well-studied. The Bell Curve (1994) stated that the average IQ of African Americans was 85, Latino 89, White 103, Asian 106, and Jews 113. Asians score relatively higher on visuospatial than on verbal subtests. The few Amerindian populations that have been systematically tested, including Arctic Natives, tend to score worse on average than white populations but better on average than black populations.[60]

    According to several studies, Ashkenazi Jews score 0.75 to 1.0 standard deviation above the general European average. This corresponds to an IQ of 112–115. Other studies have found somewhat lower values. During the 20th century, they made up about 3% of the US population but won 27% of the US science Nobel Prizes and 25% of the Turing Awards. They have high verbal and mathematical scores, while their visuospatial abilities are typically somewhat lower, by about one half standard deviation, than the European average.[65] See also Ashkenazi intelligence. The racial groups studied in the United States and Europe are not necessarily a random sample of the populations in other parts of the world. Therefore, results from data in the US and Europe do not necessarily apply to the rest of the world.
    ALL studies have found there is a Gap.
    From 3-6 pts to 15-18 pts between Blacks and Whites. (That would be even Larger/Wider between Asians/Jews and Blacks; 2 SDs?!)
    The sample wide/extensive.
    But nijato wants to play Games here on whether they even exist.
    Last edited by mbig; 08-21-11 at 01:36 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Any noted differences at any testing or study are meaningless without an explanation as to why the difference is there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    RD, A few points...
    1. There are OF COURSE haplotypes, especially microsatellite ones that are identifiable by race - we've done that. And I'll even grant that my proposition about aggregating genetic differences based on name is far less likely to come to anything meaningful than by classifying them by race. It was a point of limited use.

    2. Your specific chart was identified by mbig as a part of Race Differences in Intelligence: An Evolutionary Analysis by Richard Lynn. Is that the case?

    3. It seems that if we accept a heritability of 0.5 to 0.9, there is MORE than adequate environmental influence to account for the deviations given (i.e. 1 SD black:white)
    Last edited by nijato; 08-21-11 at 01:39 AM.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    That's because debating you when the issue is science is like talking to a wall. I gave you a link to a critique of the Abecedarian Early Intervention Project study which demonstrated that the intervention cohort was stacked. Here, I'll quote it directly:


    Four cohorts were recruited over a 5-year period, but the experimental group in Cohorts 3 and 4 produced unusually high scores on the Bayley MDI. Differences between experimental and control groups at 60 months of age were comparable to differences at 6 months of age.

    Let's toss this around for a bit. For the sake of this discussion I'll pretend that what you want to be true is indeed true. OK, let's say that early intervention works. Let's also pretend that this study wasn't focused on borderline retarded children but children in the normal cognitive range.
    Yes, I saw your earlier post and I acknowledge that the experiment has been criticized. However, the critique of the experiment has also been criticized and there was then a response to that critique and I have not been able to read all of the relevent papers.

    Ramey, C. T. (1993). A rejoinder to Spitz's critique of the Abecedarian experiment. Intelligence, 17, 25-30.
    Spitz, H. H. (1993a). Spitz's reply to Ramey's response to Spitz's first reply to Ramey's first response to Spitz's critique of the Abecedarian project. Intelligence, 17, 31-35.
    Spitz, H. H. (1993b). When prophecy fails: On Ramey's response to Spitz's critique of the Abecedarian project. Intelligence, 17, 17-23.

    So I think it's a bit premature to imagine that your cited paper is necessarily the last word on the subject.

    I think you also overstate the case that a link between IQ and race is generally accepted.

    http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~maccou...sser2.html#c19

    Here's my question to you - If Early Childhood Education effectively improves outcomes during childhood and those outcomes are stable into adulthood, then what? Tell me what you propose if this magic world could be brought about. Give me your policy wishlist.
    I should think that would be fairly obvious. If it proves out then we should invest more in early child education.
    Last edited by AdamT; 08-21-11 at 01:30 AM.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    It would seem you are no longer contesting my point after what you were really doing was exposed in my last.
    Not that your Burden wasn't Already met by me in This string and last few posts.
    ie MANY studies cited in the Wiki Link I gave, in addition to the now deleted data I posted... as well as my previosy Jensen/Rushton post in THIS string. I linked back to.

    Alright! That's exactly what I was looking for! Jensen/Rushton is precisely the kind of study I was looking for, because it gives some SD data. You see, I like to operate within a 95% confidence interval, which is to a rough approximation 2 SD. Interestingly, that 95% confidence interval spans just about all the way from about 115 down to 85.

    I can now rest, knowing that there is little statistical significance to the numbers I've been seeing. I can rest even better knowing that even the statistically significant differences between disparate groups (Ashkenazi Jews and African Americans for example) are a result of the 10-50+% of intelligence that is not heritable (i.e. environmental)

    Thanks!
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    IN a clear statement, what do you attribute to be the cause for the deviation?
    Because intelligence has such a high degree of heritability I attribute most of the variance between groups to genetics. Let me put aside the Black-White issue and focus on what we know from Asian adoption studies. Korean children were adopted in America and an agency that was handling many of these adoptions implemented a peculiar practice for their own religious/sociological/philosophical reasons - they randomly assigned the babies to adoptive parents. For academics who stumbled onto this data set years later, this was fan-freaking-tastic. The parents who adopted these babies were from all socioeconomic levels - double-plus good stuff for academics.

    Here's what they found: On the issue of child's income when adult, years of schooling, likelihood of going to college, height, obesity, overweight metrics, and BMI there was a far stronger correlation of biological child to parent than there was for adoptive child to parent. On issues like smoking and drinking, the now adult biological and adopted children had about the same level of correlation to parental behavior.

    When you look at the Korean adoptees academic records then tend to fall in line with the Korean-American means. Remember, these children were placed in families across the socioeconomic spectrum, so if environment was central to life outcomes, then we'd expect to see biological and adopted children tracking together in relation to the environment that their parents created. That's not what we saw. We saw the Korean adoptees performing more like the children of other Korean parents.

    We see the same phenomenon play out with Black children adopted into white households. After being raised alongside their white brothers and sisters, these black children are not performing on par with their siblings, they're performing at a level much closer to the African-American mean. This is a pretty clear sign that environment ain't all that.

    Now, in situations where there is extreme deprivation and lack of nutrition, there is room to bring about improvement, but that improvement likely will not close the gap for the gap is seen in the transracial adoption studies and the gap is also seen in Upper Class black households, as the children of very successful and intelligent black parent regress towards the mean of the black population (we also see this very same phenomenon in all families, not just black families - super crazy smart parents very rarely have super crazy smart kids, the parents are a bit of an anomaly and hit the genetic jackpot, but they can't roll the genetic dice and keep hitting 7 every generation, and so the kids fall back. This also works in reverse - sometimes ordinary parents hit the jackpot and their little prince or princess turns out smarter than them, or taller, or heavier, etc)

    So, I think that most of what we're seeing in America today is the result of genetics for I believe that most of the environmental factors that could be depressing outcomes are at the point where their marginal effects are minimal or non-existent. No one in the US is suffering from Iodine-deficiency, like they do in Africa and which is known to cause IQ depression. Everyone is going to school. Any additional support given on environmental factors will increase the comfort level of the children and make their lives easier and a bit more pleasant, but I don't believe that there will be much closing in the Gap as a result.

    We are, after all, dealing with evolution and genetics. Nature doesn't deal the deck of cards so that everything comes out equal for everyone.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Because intelligence has such a high degree of heritability I attribute most of the variance between groups to genetics. Let me put aside the Black-White issue and focus on what we know from Asian adoption studies. Korean children were adopted in America and an agency that was handling many of these adoptions implemented a peculiar practice for their own religious/sociological/philosophical reasons - they randomly assigned the babies to adoptive parents. For academics who stumbled onto this data set years later, this was fan-freaking-tastic. The parents who adopted these babies were from all socioeconomic levels - double-plus good stuff for academics.

    Here's what they found: On the issue of child's income when adult, years of schooling, likelihood of going to college, height, obesity, overweight metrics, and BMI there was a far stronger correlation of biological child to parent than there was for adoptive child to parent. On issues like smoking and drinking, the now adult biological and adopted children had about the same level of correlation to parental behavior.

    When you look at the Korean adoptees academic records then tend to fall in line with the Korean-American means. Remember, these children were placed in families across the socioeconomic spectrum, so if environment was central to life outcomes, then we'd expect to see biological and adopted children tracking together in relation to the environment that their parents created. That's not what we saw. We saw the Korean adoptees performing more like the children of other Korean parents.

    We see the same phenomenon play out with Black children adopted into white households. After being raised alongside their white brothers and sisters, these black children are not performing on par with their siblings, they're performing at a level much closer to the African-American mean. This is a pretty clear sign that environment ain't all that.

    Now, in situations where there is extreme deprivation and lack of nutrition, there is room to bring about improvement, but that improvement likely will not close the gap for the gap is seen in the transracial adoption studies and the gap is also seen in Upper Class black households, as the children of very successful and intelligent black parent regress towards the mean of the black population (we also see this very same phenomenon in all families, not just black families - super crazy smart parents very rarely have super crazy smart kids, the parents are a bit of an anomaly and hit the genetic jackpot, but they can't roll the genetic dice and keep hitting 7 every generation, and so the kids fall back. This also works in reverse - sometimes ordinary parents hit the jackpot and their little prince or princess turns out smarter than them, or taller, or heavier, etc)

    So, I think that most of what we're seeing in America today is the result of genetics for I believe that most of the environmental factors that could be depressing outcomes are at the point where their marginal effects are minimal or non-existent. No one in the US is suffering from Iodine-deficiency, like they do in Africa and which is known to cause IQ depression. Everyone is going to school. Any additional support given on environmental factors will increase the comfort level of the children and make their lives easier and a bit more pleasant, but I don't believe that there will be much closing in the Gap as a result.

    We are, after all, dealing with evolution and genetics. Nature doesn't deal the deck of cards so that everything comes out equal for everyone.
    Too often gentics is interpreted to mean race, which I would argue is not the same thing. Among white folk, there are gentic differences, in which one family has smarter kids than another. If we use these stats to suggest one race is smarter than another, a very worrisome proposition, I think you are misreading the numbers.

    Intelligence is not something that can be limited to one factor. Test themselves can be less accurate than we like to believe. So, I disagree. If all things were equal, every race would have very similar distributions of of numbers in intelligence.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Any noted differences at any testing or study are meaningless without an explanation as to why the difference is there.
    Any report of a house on fire is meaningless without an explanation as to why the house is on fire.

    The differences are quite meaningful. They're real. They have everyday impact on millions of lives and on society. Knowing why the differences exist will give us more information, most assuredly, but knowing that something exists without knowing why is quite useful in itself. Knowing that your house is on fire gives you the information to call the fire department RIGHT NOW and then, later, you can look into why your house was ablaze.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Any report of a house on fire is meaningless without an explanation as to why the house is on fire.

    The differences are quite meaningful. They're real. They have everyday impact on millions of lives and on society. Knowing why the differences exist will give us more information, most assuredly, but knowing that something exists without knowing why is quite useful in itself. Knowing that your house is on fire gives you the information to call the fire department RIGHT NOW and then, later, you can look into why your house was ablaze.
    An apples to tree frogs comparison.

    Real? Maybe, depending on the accuracy of the measurement, but why means more. Knowing a house is s danger, more the comparison here, and not knowing what to send, or do, as it could be a fire, a tornado, a vandal, a gas leak. You have to know what the numbers mean, otherwise, the information is incomplete and rather useless.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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