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Thread: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Do you really need citations of Racial IQ differences?
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    The internet and last century are replete with such.
    Surely you can't pretend/posit you are not aware of the wealth of it.
    Even deniers can only make up apologies for those Acknowledged differences.
    (socio-economic, nutrition, blah, etc)
    Ok. There's lots of BS on the internet, and the last century is also replete with BS... and I fully acknowledge that intelligence (as measured by IQ) is somewhere between 50 and 90% heritable, because there's peer-reviewed research to support that, even though it is admittedly difficult to isolate genetics as an independent variable.

    As for the last part, all those "blah-blah socio-economic" factors also play a significant role, by ANY measure. No rational person would argue they don't have a significant impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    You might want to start with a post of mine in This very string:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059741795

    Amazingly the data is more difficult to find now than 5 or 10 years ago as sites like Wikipedia have become utterly PC and deleted large amounts of info. This is true about so Many sensitive entries on Wiki.
    ie, A Large version of this used to be on Race and intelligence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia page:


    No more. The link no longer exists.

    Richard Lynn's table USED to be on Wiki: Found it in a 3 year old post of mine From that site.
    (the same post which contained the graph above Race and IQ. - Political Forum )


    No longer. Though he is mentioned.
    Can't I just get a link to an article in Science, Nature,or evenIntelligence (The Journal of the International Society of Intelligence Research?

    You make very great claims, then back them up with links to blog posts and books of dubious reputation. I need data! What are the sample sizes? What are the standard deviations? I'll keep my mind open. If you should find something a little more reliable, please do post it. For now however, I'm going to have to say your claims are unsubstantiated.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Your criticism is quite bizarre. As I pointed out last night, a) I misread your original post, but in any case, b) nothing that followed what I quoted contradicted what I said/quoted.

    And for the record, if you want to stand on a credibility high horse, I suggest you ride in on something other than ad hominem argument.
    That's a Raging LIE.
    A Repeated Raging Lie.

    The sequence explained here:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059742583

    You Withheld the Link to hide the fact it actually Contradicted you after the first sentence.
    The second going on to explain that all dogs descended from ONE grey wolf specie and that the 2 species names were, IN FACT, viewed a Synonyms, NOT 2 different species.

    I'm not sure what to do at this point except keep exposing your Dishonest tactics and Denial. I view what you did, and now again Lie about, as Beneath Contempt.
    But I won't preempt myself from busting your Crap in the future by necessarily ignoring your posts.
    Fini.
    Last edited by mbig; 08-21-11 at 12:53 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    That's a Raging LIE.
    A Repeated Raging Lie.

    The sequence explained here:
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1059742583

    You Withheld the Link to hide the fact it actually Contradicted you after the first sentence.
    The second going on to explain that all dogs descended from ONE grey wolf specie and that the 2 species names were, IN FACT, viewed a Synonyms, NOT 2 different species.

    I'm not sure what to do at this point except keep exposing your Dishonest tactics and Denial. I view what you did, and now again Lie about, as Beneath Contempt.
    But I won't preempt myself from busting your Crap in the future by using 'ignore'.
    Don't give yourself an aneurysm, there, junior. You don't know what you're talking about. The point I was making with the quote was that all dogs ARE one species. As I explained (when I APOLOGIZED for misreading your original post), I thought you were arguing that all breeds are separate species. Thus, the rest of the quote only reinforced the quote that I posted.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    .........

    You make very great claims, then back them up with links to blog posts and books of dubious reputation. I need data! What are the sample sizes? What are the standard deviations? I'll keep my mind open. If you should find something a little more reliable, please do post it. For now however, I'm going to have to say your claims are unsubstantiated.
    There's Plenty posted in my last and the previous post of mine in this string (you necessarily Ignored) linked to in it.

    And one could post infinitely more.
    But I see you want to play word/mb games, when again, even IQ deniers acknowledge the difference, only challenge the reasons for them.

    Somewhat like the GW debate debate is basically unchallenged, just the AGW part.
    Similarly Racial IQ is also not really challenged, just the reasons for the differences.
    But you want to Bust Balls by Burden shifting where there is No debate.

    -
    Last edited by mbig; 08-21-11 at 12:55 AM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Lets put "why" aside for the time being and focus on "how"

    There are lots of very complex structures in humans, insects, animals, fish, etc. According to evolutionary theory, they evolved from less complex structures and survived in the species because they offered a survival advantage.

    How can evolution be tested????
    Here's my ALL-TIME favorite experiment EVER: Self-Sustained Replication of an RNA Enzyme

    To keep it short and sweet, this team developed pairs of RNA sequences that could catalyze their own construction from RNA nucleotides. The amazing part is this - after allowing this to occur for a sufficient number of cycles, an entire NEW SET of molecules was in their test tubes. These new, mutant versions were much better at reproducing than the original sequences, which had gone completely extinct. Here's an article about it from Science Daily

    Also, another point is generation times are too long for complex organisms to see meaningful changes. That's why evolutionary biologists often study bacterial or viral systems that reproduce much more quickly. Here's an example: About 30,000 generations separate humans and the most recent common ancestor shared with chimps. That took about 6,000,000 years to happen. A fast reproducing bacteria dividing every 30 minutes can go through 30,000 generations in about 2 years.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    You're conditions aren't fair: you tell me I must find a drug that works ONLY for people whose names begin with the letter A, yet your task is only to find a drug that works "especially well" for African Americans. I posit that it is entirely possible that a drug could be more effective for people with only A names. Just because of the stochastic nature of population genetics, as well as ethno-cultural naming patterns, I bet significant genetic differences could be found among groups of people based solely on name. Obviously, this is just a conjecture, but it would make for an interesting study.
    It's not a fair bet because with only a few exceptions the correlation between family name (Cohen, Wong) and identifiable genetic structure is going to be about 0.0. Race isn't just about skin color or hair texture or just a few distinct facial features - the meaning of race is hidden within the correlational structure of the genome. This wasn't really understood until only a few decades ago but now with a better understanding of the principles, more sophisticated hardware, and powerful statistical analysis, all sorts of goodies are being uncovered.

    Your gambit is similar to what Jared Diamond tried to push with his inane suggestion that we could socially construct a "lactose intolerant" race. He argued that you could find lactose intolerance in many different population groups and so, if lactose intolerance was deemed socially significant, a new race of people would be recognized. This is a pretty laughable proposition because it isolates race down to only one attribute and that's not what race is about. You don't see people with ancestry in East Africa being black, but with red hair, blue eyes, shovel shaped incisors, nordic nasal features, Sami cheekbones, straight black hair as seen in Asians, etc.

    What I did above was identify features that mark appearance, but race goes deeper that just appearance. We see different disease dispositions, different distributions of breast cancers for instance, black woman tending to get the more aggressive type, Asians having a greater risk of acquired severe aplastic anaemia, and so on. Incidentally, it is precisely because race is so salient to social outcomes that most international comparisons which don't control for the racial variance across populations are worthless, studies like those which compare longevity, health outcomes, infant mortality, as well as education, wealth, income, income inequality.

    Anyways, when I take the side of the bet that there useful correlations associated with race, I've got a whole lot of interrelated factors moving together where you, having picked names, really don't. That was a sucker bet. If you don't like the angle I took by referencing pharmaceuticals tailored to race, I'm more than happy to take subjects like infant mortality against your grouping of names beginning with any letter you chose.

    However, you have not yet provided a reference which supports your average racial IQs you posted earlier.
    This is actually the least controversial point I've made in this entire discussion. Those numbers are seen all throughout the literature. No one is disputing them. The dispute, as it is, centers on whether the numbers arise from genes, environment or a combination of both factors. The extremist creationists argue for environment, the moderates argue for genes and environment. No one argues for genes alone.

    Here is a task-force report that was put together 15 years ago by the American Psychological Association in response to the best selling book The Bell Curve and all of the controversy it caused. The task-force has representation from all sides of the debate and this report was a statement that they all agreed to. Keep in mind that this is now 15 years old and science has moved on but the IQ data on groups is still showing the same level of variance.

    • The relatively low mean of the distribution of African American intelligence test scores has been discussed for many years. Although studies
      using different tests and samples yield a range of results, the Black mean is typically about one standard deviation (about 15 points) below that of Whites.
    • In the United States, the mean intelligence test scores of Hispanics typically lie between those of Blacks and Whites.
    • It may be worth noting that the interpretation of test scores obtained by Asians in Asia has been controversial in its own right. Lynn (1982) reported a mean Japanese IQ of 111 while Flynn (1991) estimated it to be between 101 and 105. . . . . A similar calculation for Japanese Americans shows that their level of achievement matched that of Whites averaging 110.


    I feel that providing a scientific reference for this rather extraordinary claim is crucial to your credibility.
    You're being unintentionally funny here. That was not an extraordinary claim. These IQ gaps are the underlying basis for policies like No Child Left Behind, Affirmative Action, and they form the basis for how we look at Jewish achievement, the theme of Asians being the model minority.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    You don't have to bend reality or reject science to have faith.
    You don't. I agree. The fellow is also right that you can't read the bible literally, accept that, and believe in science. Those who interpret the bible literally should question their believes more IMHO.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    You're being unintentionally funny here. That was not an extraordinary claim. These IQ gaps are the underlying basis for policies like No Child Left Behind, Affirmative Action, and they form the basis for how we look at Jewish achievement, the theme of Asians being the model minority.
    That's an absurd statement. These distinctions are based on statistical differences in achievement, not an artificial benchmark.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Here is a task-force report that was put together 15 years ago by the American Psychological Association in response to the best selling book The Bell Curve and all of the controversy it caused. The task-force has representation from all sides of the debate and this report was a statement that they all agreed to. Keep in mind that this is now 15 years old and science has moved on but the IQ data on groups is still showing the same level of variance.

    • The relatively low mean of the distribution of African American intelligence test scores has been discussed for many years. Although studies
      using different tests and samples yield a range of results, the Black mean is typically about one standard deviation (about 15 points) below that of Whites.
    • In the United States, the mean intelligence test scores of Hispanics typically lie between those of Blacks and Whites.
    • It may be worth noting that the interpretation of test scores obtained by Asians in Asia has been controversial in its own right. Lynn (1982) reported a mean Japanese IQ of 111 while Flynn (1991) estimated it to be between 101 and 105. . . . . A similar calculation for Japanese Americans shows that their level of achievement matched that of Whites averaging 110.




    You're being unintentionally funny here. That was not an extraordinary claim. These IQ gaps are the underlying basis for policies like No Child Left Behind, Affirmative Action, and they form the basis for how we look at Jewish achievement, the theme of Asians being the model minority.
    IN a clear statement, what do you attribute to be the cause for the deviation?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    There's Plenty posted in my last and the previous post of mine in this string (you necessarily Ignored) linked to in it.

    And one could post infinitely more.
    But I see you want to play word/mb games, when again, even IQ deniers acknowledge the difference, only challenge the reasons for them.

    Somewhat like the GW debate debate is basically unchallenged, just the AGW part.
    Similarly Racial IQ is also not really challenged, just the reasons for the differences.
    But you want to Bust Balls by Burden shifting where there is no debate.

    -
    It would seem you aren't interested in figuring out the real causes behind the differences you purport.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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