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Thread: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I have no idea why someone would think that. At most evolution being true would simply disprove the creation story present in the bible, but only if one feels that the story needs to be taken literally.
    This is, of course, the obvious counterpoint.
    Generally, these people are so stuck on the idea that God does not exist that they lose their ability to think a couple steps ahead.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The correlational structure of the genome allows us to classify into broad racial categories without using obvious genes for skin color. As we increase the number of alleles sampled we can parse down to finer and finer classifications of race. See here:


    For each person in the study, the researchers examined 326 DNA regions that tend to vary between people. These regions are not necessarily within genes, but are simply genetic signposts on chromosomes that come in a variety of different forms at the same location.

    Without knowing how the participants had identified themselves, Risch and his team ran the results through a computer program that grouped individuals according to patterns of the 326 signposts. This analysis could have resulted in any number of different clusters, but only four clear groups turned up. And in each case the individuals within those clusters all fell within the same self-identified racial group.

    "This shows that people's self-identified race/ethnicity is a nearly perfect indicator of their genetic background," Risch said.


    Those patterns (bolded) are simply another way of referencing the correlational structure of the genome and this is where we find racial variance and those racial clusters coincide almost perfectly with the social definition of race.

    Your question addressed the issue of tying race to intelligence but you're not making clear to me why you think that the connection is meaningless. Think about how racial groups formed. We already know that intelligence is highly heritable and races are partially inbred, large extended families. For instance, an Asian person, say a Japanese, can, if they go back enough generations, find a common ancestor to another Asian person, say a Han Chinese. They'll have to go back a lot further to find a common ancestor with a Celt or with a Nigerian. The further back you go in your search for a common ancestor the more genetic distinction that has arisen over the years of separation you have to throw overboard. So what we're talking about here are degrees of relatedness as another way of referencing race. Intelligence is highly heritable and the genetic structure of intelligence, like other genetic attributes, also varies by race. See here:


    Genetics of human prefrontal function.

    "These observations suggest that some genetic variants that influence g will vary between populations rather than within populations. For instance, certain Asian populations have a frequency of 0.60 in COMT Met158 allele, which predicts lower COMT-enzyme activity and thereby better cognitive performance, while Caucasians have a frequency of 0.42 for the same allele.
    Lots of good stuff here...

    1. The Stanford study was really interesting. Not only does it demonstrate what you purport it to, but it also raises a few other questions, such as: Assuming all study participants are American, it seems to indicate that in a relatively small number of generations, distinct breeding populations self-segregate in human populations, AND there is not enough gene flow between these self-segregated populations to disturb Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium.

    Excellent reference.

    2. Should it then be hypothesized that Asia-Pacific Islanders have the highest IQ since they are the most divergent from the original ancestral population? If so, is there any data for that?

    3. It is sort of a shame that cognitive ability isn't selected for by the civilized environment, isn't it? Considering the correlation between female education and birth rates, it would seem that low IQ is selected for in a population of humans who do not face survival pressures from the environment.

    4. The NIH article is behind a paywall... any chance you have a copy lying around? Looks interesting.

    much respect.
    Last edited by nijato; 08-19-11 at 05:20 PM.
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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Lots of good stuff here...

    2. Should it then be hypothesized that Asia-Pacific Islanders have the highest IQ since they are the most divergent from the original ancestral population? If so, there any data for that?
    The IQ literature shows the following for group mean IQ: Ashkenazi Jew, 115; Northeast Asian., 105; Whites, 100; Hispanic, 89; African-American, 85.

    The divergence from ancestral population is not the causal factor in play - all that does is present a bigger canvas upon which changes MAY arise, not WILL arise.

    3. It is sort of a shame that cognitive ability isn't selected for by the civilized environment, isn't it? Considering the correlation between female education and birth rates, it would seem that low IQ is selected for in a population of humans who do not face survival pressures from the environment.
    yes, Mike Judge has noticed this also.


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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Why do whales still breath air instead of water? Surely the need to no longer surface for air would be a survival advantage? Certainly it would when humans started hunting whales. Their only vulnerability is when they have to surface to breath?
    Seriously, I don't have the time... evolution is a process that selects what survives from what already exists. Whales breathe air because they have lungs, and that has worked for them. They're mammals! It's sort of the same reason the laryngeal nerve of a giraffe circles under it's aortic arch - any engineer would never contrive such a terribly inefficient design. You seriously would have to believe in a "designer" that purposefully designed organisms this way so as to make them to appear to be the products of natural selection. If that's not absurd enough of a proposition, I don't know what is.
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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The IQ literature shows the following for group mean IQ: Ashkenazi Jew, 115; Northeast Asian., 105; Whites, 100; Hispanic, 89; African-American, 85.

    The divergence from ancestral population is not the causal factor in play - all that does is present a bigger canvas upon which changes MAY arise, not WILL arise.



    yes, Mike Judge has noticed this also.
    ]
    Now I need to watch that... do you have a ref for the IQ data? sorry if i missed it in a different post.
    Last edited by nijato; 08-19-11 at 05:45 PM.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Sorry, I haven't read the papers yet, but I'm curious if these studies take social factors into account as well as genetic factors. Do they include the study of, e.g. someone of Ashkenazi jewish descent who has been raised by black parents, or a black person raised by Ashkenazi parents?

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    Generally, these people are so stuck on the idea that God does not exist that they lose their ability to think a couple steps ahead.
    That sums it up pretty well to me.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    The IQ literature shows the following for group mean IQ: Ashkenazi Jew, 115; Northeast Asian., 105; Whites, 100; Hispanic, 89; African-American, 85.
    The problem with this is that the IQ literature also shows that environment plays a significant role in determining IQ, which considerably hampers the hypothesis that the racial variance in IQ is caused by evolution.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The problem with this is that the IQ literature also shows that environment plays a significant role in determining IQ, which considerably hampers the hypothesis that the racial variance in IQ is caused by evolution.
    Right, that's what I was getting at above. There are many factors in early child rearing, and even health care during pregnancy, that impact IQ. If you don't control for those factors the race-based tests aren't particularly meaningful.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    I like Huntsman. He is not my perfect candidate, but I agree with him on a lot of issues. In fact, I do agree with him on a lot more issues than I do with any of the other GOP candidates or Obama. I would vote for him if he got the nomination.

    However, I highly doubt he will get the nomination. Like others have said, it seems that the GOP wants a far right candidate to go against Obama. In the actual election, I think this is a bad idea though because far right candidates are much less likely to get people to vote for them and are likely to even cause those like me who can't stand Obama to vote for him rather than end up with someone like them as President. Huntsman though would do well against Obama in the general election, if he could get the nomination, because he would likely get the Republican vote just from being a Republican (although some may choose just not to vote at all) and he could get moderates/Independents to vote for him, especially those who don't like Obama policies. He wouldn't likely rally the Republican base to actually get out and vote, but then again, it is also unlikely that he would cause more Dems to get out and vote just to vote against him, like some of the other GOP candidates are very likely to do.

    It is unlikely that he could win as an Independent candidate, just from the way our politics in this country work, but it could happen. However, if he ran as an Independent candidate in the election, he could very likely cause some problems with predicting who would win between Obama and several of the other GOP candidates. It is likely that as an Independent, he would take votes away from both sides.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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