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Thread: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Find a liberal who is an atheist. Look at them. There's your answer.
    atheists don't believe in evolution? what?

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Surfacing didn't make them vulnerable until man learned to hunt whales. Kind of tough to expect them to evolve gills in five or ten thousand years.
    Ummmm...Tell me how a tooth suddenly starts to sprout hairs and becomes a survival advantage as it evolves into baleen..ie baleen whale? At some point, it becomes ineffective at catching larger fish and is not yet effective at straining out plankton. Yet somehow the tooth continues to change and adapt. Not just in one family line but in enough to supply sufficient genetic diversity for a species to arise. And do it with other animals living in the same water eating the same food and not changing???

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    He'd qualify pretty well under the fiscal conservative heading. Far better than most people who claim the title of "conservative" actually. Hasn't he had a budget surplus year after year since he has been governor?

    What makes you think he isn't conservative under most definitions?
    I was mostly going by his support of the stimulus (he said it wasnít big enough), huge spending increases as governor (though like you said, he still somehow managed to balance the budget), and support of cap & trade as making him more of a fiscal moderate. But now that Iím looking at his record, it seems like heís more conservative than he bills himself off as. Which is kind of weird; if he wanted to Iím sure he really could claim to be more fiscally conservative than most of the others running (I think he might be the only one yet to really embrace Paul Ryanís plan), yet he seems determined to be the mediaís darling for being the only ďsaneĒ (i.e. moderate) candidate in the race.
    For some reason most descriptions of his views - both by conservatives and liberals - label him as more of a technocrat uninterested in shrinking the size of government; there must be something to that, though I wish I could find more details to prove it.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Oh I believe in the science of GW... just not the right science, according to some. The implication of Huntsman's statement was basically that he was pro-science, and anyone who disagreed with him was anti-science in some way.
    no, huntsman implied that rick perry was anti-science, and he seems to be just that.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    I was mostly going by his support of the stimulus (he said it wasn’t big enough), huge spending increases as governor (though like you said, he still somehow managed to balance the budget), and support of cap & trade as making him more of a fiscal moderate. But now that I’m looking at his record, it seems like he’s more conservative than he bills himself off as. Which is kind of weird; if he wanted to I’m sure he really could claim to be more fiscally conservative than most of the others running (I think he might be the only one yet to really embrace Paul Ryan’s plan), yet he seems determined to be the media’s darling for being the only “sane” (i.e. moderate) candidate in the race.
    For some reason most descriptions of his views - both by conservatives and liberals - label him as more of a technocrat uninterested in shrinking the size of government; there must be something to that, though I wish I could find more details to prove it.
    He said the stimulus wasn't geared towards things that would really stimulate the economy, though, and he was right about that. He actually wanted it to be used towards corporate tax cuts and infrastructure, which is a more conservative use of the funding than what actually occurred. He has also changed his position on cap and trade.

    To me, a conservative must also be practical. The government itself is not the enemy. Instead, the enemy is impractical use of government, especially in the realm of spending. His ability to maintain a surplus and keep a balanced budget is a sign that his increased spending has been used practically for a beneficial purpose (in a fiscally responsible fashion). Fiscal responsibility is what has been missing from both parties now for decades. Huntsman appears to live off of the concept of fiscal responsibility. there is a lot of lip service paid towards fiscal responsibility form each party, but certain people like Huntsman appear to spend more time actually doing it than talking about it.

    Also, his comments thus far about state's rights are right up my alley, since he doesn't allow his personal views on teh aprticular issue involved to influence his position about state's rights (i.e. only supporting state's rights when it conforms to his own positions on the issue involved. Perry has done this as well).

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    No, he won't appeal to the "base" because he's an unashamed moderate across the board in an election where people are looking for a conservative.
    That comment is so strikingly and glaringly false that it boggles my mind. Best governor in the COUNTRY on taxes (and that's during a time when Mr. Perry, Mr. Pawlenty, Mr. Romney, and Ms. Palin were all governors), one of the best consistently on business friendly legislation, decreased government spending as a percent of GDP. There's no way you can call him a fiscal moderate rather than a fiscal conservative. Just not accurate in the slightest

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    That comment is so strikingly and glaringly false that it boggles my mind. Best governor in the COUNTRY on taxes (and that's during a time when Mr. Perry, Mr. Pawlenty, Mr. Romney, and Ms. Palin were all governors), one of the best consistently on business friendly legislation, decreased government spending as a percent of GDP. There's no way you can call him a fiscal moderate rather than a fiscal conservative. Just not accurate in the slightest
    If so you're pretty much the only self-described conservative I've heard from who thinks so. I'm not saying you're wrong - the more I look at it the more I think you might not be - just that if you're right, it's strange that we don't hear about it more often, and even stranger how much the media/Democrats seem to love the guy while he gets like 1% support among his actual party.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Post #51.
    It was the result of a survey sent out to more than 3000 earth scientists: 97% of active climatologists agree that human activity is causing global warming : Deltoid.
    Appeal to Validity of Consensus. Appeal to Authority.
    the authority appealed to is actually an authority in the field under discussion, it's not a logical fallacy. It's only a logical fallacy when one appeals to a an expert in one field for his opinion on an unrelated matter.


    Fallacy:
    Citing Madonna's opinions on physics.
    Citing Einsteain's opinions on pop-music.
    Citing Alton Brown's opinion on global warming
    Citing climate scientists' opinions on pizza toppings.


    Not Fallacy:
    Citing Einstein's opinion on physics.
    Citing Madonna's opinions on pop-music.
    Citing Alton Brown's opinion on pizza toppings.
    Citing climate scientists' opinions on global warming.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    That's an easy one, not everyone believes evolution to be as robust a theory. Surely you didn't mean to imply that because all are scientific theories, all should be treated with the same reverence.
    Saying something is "just a theory" doesn't actual offer any rebuttal or hold much meaning as is evidenced by the things, like evolution, which are the basis for swaths of modern knowledge.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Huntsman on evolution, warming: 'Call me crazy'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    I was mostly going by his support of the stimulus (he said it wasn’t big enough)
    Specifically, wanted larger amount of tax cuts in it

    huge spending increases as governor (though like you said, he still somehow managed to balance the budget)
    I question your use of "huge". That said, while the total amount of money spent increased, its percentage of GDP decreased unlike in previous years in Utah. His polices grew the private sector at a far quicker pace than government was growing and helped to make government less as a percentage of GDP by the time he left office. They were running a surplus, and his tax policies were bringing increased revenue. I'm not a huge fan of government spending, but we're being intellectually dishonest as conservatives if we're going to try to compare increasing spending while you're running deficits and greatly in debt (you know, Reagan did that. I guess he was a moderate?) and say its the same thing as raising it when you're already running a surprlus and having increases in revenue.

    and support of cap & trade as making him more of a fiscal moderate.
    What the hell does Cap & Trade have to do with fiscal policy? At most its more regarding governmental issues and the expansion of government. But lets say its fiscal since its affecting businesses. You're looking at this in such a black and white matter that his support for a SINGLE thing, which he has since backed away from supporting, somehow outweighs the actual evidence through the results of his policies of his primary actions towards business which is to remove legislation, lower taxes, and give them more self determination? Despite the Cap and Trade thing, Utah was still regularly listed as a top 3 place in the country to do business during an economic time where much of the country was doing horrendous. Judging him fiscally in regards to his stance on business on a SINGLE piece of legislation rather than looking at the sum of his parts is ridiculous and using that to claim he's a moderate is again, akin to saying we must declare Ronald Reagan a Moderate if he had ever done ONE thing in any area that was not directly in line with conservative thought.

    But now that I’m looking at his record, it seems like he’s more conservative than he bills himself off as.
    Dav, I'll be honest with you. I don't think he's more conservative than he bills himself as...I think he's more conservative than the conservative media and some of the more steadfast republicans bill him as. I think you've bought into the PERCEPTION while tricking yourself into thinking you bought into him.

    He's moderate socially, at the best. And even then, while he's "moderate" on what to do with immigrants in this country he's decidedly conservative in his belief of "secure the border first" and then go from there. And he's okay with civil unions. On the flip he's "pro-life". Yet the civil union thing alone generally gets him termed a "moderate". What he bills himself as is essentially an individual, not a moderate. He's not just a cookie cutter conservative that does EVERYTHING the republicans think and isn't going to just agree with everything that's stereotypical to a republican...just because. He breaks with them here and there, such as on environmental issues, but for the most part is a pretty sound conservative.

    Under this man and through his policies and those he supported Utah...

    Increased GDP by 8%
    Reduced government spending as a percent of GDP by 2%
    Maintained a AAA Bond rating
    Implemented health care reform that was market driven and focused on consumer choice
    Implemented a flat tax
    Implemented the largest tax cuts in the history of Utah (a traditionally pretty conservative state)
    Created an environment that was routinely listed in the top 3, and at times as the #1, place in the country to do business

    To me, that sounds like the type of results that I'd want to be seeing from our next President.

    Which is kind of weird; if he wanted to I’m sure he really could claim to be more fiscally conservative than most of the others running (I think he might be the only one yet to really embrace Paul Ryan’s plan), yet he seems determined to be the media’s darling for being the only “sane” (i.e. moderate) candidate in the race.
    He's only been in the running for a month and a half, the Media pushes what they want to push, and he's only been in one debate. During that debate he tried to focus on a few things he does well fiscally; mentioned the bond rating, the jobs, etc. What the media is going to cover and how they're going to portray him though isn't largely his choice. You know this. Conservatives often bitch how the media portrayed Bush and Palin for instance.

    Huntsman could pose a significant challenge to Obama. He's got fiscal credentials that should win over any honest tea partier who is part of the movement for reasons that actually are supposedly the focus of the movement...fiscal issues. He's got a slightly more moderate stance on social issues that may attract some libertarians and democrats. He's got a record as an executive that is 180 degree's from the record Obama has as an executive. He's got executive experience, foreign policy experience, and private sector experience. He's also got a slight shield from some of the more over the top criticisms the Obama camp may want to throw out, as if you absolutely DESTROY Huntsman than it reflects poorly on Obama's judgement and honesty since he had selected him for an ambassador position in one of the most important spots in the global world.

    Huntsman I honestly think could create a huge challenge to Obama...so what's the best way to make sure he's never going to sniff the election? Well, make him McCain II, the wishy washy moderate that the base obviously will hate.

    For some reason most descriptions of his views - both by conservatives and liberals - label him as more of a technocrat uninterested in shrinking the size of government; there must be something to that, though I wish I could find more details to prove it.
    He's not a Ron Paul, lets cut entire departments tomorrow, type of shrink the government. I think also his time in Utah gives a bad image of it. When your economy and revenues are growing so much that even if your spending increases its still, compared to the past, essentially smaller compared to the rest of your states spending the incentive, need, and reason to cut isn't there as much. That's an entirely different situation then the nation as a whole is facing. To give you an idea and an analogy...

    In case one...You make $4000 a month, your bills and living expenses cost you $3200, you're paying $300 on minimum payments of credit cards, and you're spending $1000 on misc purchases and entertainment. Well, that means every month you're putting $500 on your credit card because you're spending too much, which raises slowly that minimum payment you have to pay as it compounds your debt.

    In case two...You've managed to make $500 more a month, meaning $400. Your bills and living expenses still cost you $3200, but you're debt is far more manageable and from your past, so you only pay $25 a month on it. You however started adding a gym membership to your monthly expenditures, making you spend $1125 an misc purchases and entertainment. Now, rather than a $500 debt, you're running a $150 surprlus. Meaning each month you've got money you're putting into the bank and/or paying down your debt. And you're doing that with increased spending.

    It'd be irresponsible for someone in case one to go out and add that gym membership to their spending, pushing them more in debt. However, that's not really the case with #2. Now while I understand that issue with thinking that more government spending of any kind is bad, I have issues with the notion that because someone would increase spending by a small but manageable amount in case two that they'd do the same in case one. That's essentially what people suggest with Huntsman. That seemingly because in a state that had a good budget, good revenues, little debt, and great GDP growth Huntsman's budgets increased by a bit that if he came into the Presidency where we have bad budgets, iffy revenues, a HUGE amount of debt, and slow GDP growth that he'd still increase spending. To me, that's a very, very poor assumption to make.

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