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Thread: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why does everyone focus on AGW when talking about energy consumption anyway? Isn't the more pressing point of finding alternate energy sources the fact that oil and even coal are not easily renewable resources and therefore are eventually going to run out? Plus, although I am all about nuclear energy, I don't think that it should be the end-all solution to our energy needs either (at it's current level of technology anyway) due to the amount of nuclear waste that it produces.
    And here's the real kicker - you can't have nuclear without oil. A nuclear power plant is a massive project that requires many tons of steel and concrete - the production and installation of which requires the use of fossil fuels and produces lots of atmospheric CO2. To say nuclear power is clean-air technology is myopic.

    I am truly of the "all of the above" position on energy. We're in for a real crunch, and we need all the nuclear, wind, solar, onshore drilling, offshore drilling, and whatever else can be done to help. Other than mountaintop removal for coal mining and building new traditional coal-fired electricity plants, the US should aggressively pursue all energy options in order to help achieve a "soft landing" as oil production peaks.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    The quicker we use up oil and natural gas the quicker we have to find an alternative.
    ...which doesn't exist. NG is the most chemically reduced form of carbon possible.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    The quicker we use up oil and natural gas the quicker we have to find an alternative.
    And the more painful that transition will become.

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    And here's the real kicker - you can't have nuclear without oil. A nuclear power plant is a massive project that requires many tons of steel and concrete - the production and installation of which requires the use of fossil fuels and produces lots of atmospheric CO2. To say nuclear power is clean-air technology is myopic.

    I am truly of the "all of the above" position on energy. We're in for a real crunch, and we need all the nuclear, wind, solar, onshore drilling, offshore drilling, and whatever else can be done to help. Other than mountaintop removal for coal mining and building new traditional coal-fired electricity plants, the US should aggressively pursue all energy options in order to help achieve a "soft landing" as oil production peaks.
    The emissions caused by construction of the plant aren't even in the same galaxy as the lifelong emissions of a coal plant.
    Last edited by Deuce; 08-17-11 at 10:39 PM.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Can't really agree to that. Much of it is based on direct measurement. And I'm not sure what you mean by "proxy." If you mean that some of the data, especially from older time periods is based on inferences from indirect sources, that's true. Satellites produce lots of useful data too... where are you going here?
    If push comes to shove, I can defend my use of the word “proxy” but it looks like we agree on the fundamental issues I wanted to clarify so I’ll move along and try to answer your “where are you going” question.

    The 2007 IPCC report you referenced is based upon models that have a much longer timeline than the Spencer study/article being criticized herein. It needed to be clarified that the IPCC studies you rely upon for your opinions are primarily based upon data didn’t directly measure temps but used the direct temp measurements Spencer used to validate their own models.

    How can you claim Spencer is way off the mark with this study without asking yourself why the IPCC models still use this same short timeline data to validate their own models?

    Unfortunately it is going to be hit and miss as far as my ability to keep up with this dialogue as I will begin a new school semester on Monday and have plans to spend much of that time on the water with friends and family between now and then. I’ll do what I can to keep it going though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    And the more painful that transition will become.

    The emissions caused by construction of the plant aren't even in the same galaxy as the lifelong emissions of a coal plant.
    Are you suggesting we stop burning coal Deuce?

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The emissions caused by construction of the plant aren't even in the same galaxy as the lifelong emissions of a coal plant.
    True. But neither are they insignificant. I'm on team nuclear... just not thrilled about it.
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    The 2007 IPCC report you referenced is based upon models that have a much longer timeline than the Spencer study/article being criticized herein. It needed to be clarified that the IPCC studies you rely upon for your opinions are primarily based upon data didn’t directly measure temps but used the direct temp measurements Spencer used to validate their own models.
    I'm confused as to weather you're saying the IPCC conclusions are based on direct or indirect temperature records. It sort of doesn't matter however, as the IPCC cited hundreds of peer-reviewed articles using both types of sources, plus plenty of others that aren't about temperatures at all. I also disagree with your use of the word "primarily."

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    How can you claim Spencer is way off the mark with this study without asking yourself why the IPCC models still use this same short timeline data to validate their own models?
    I'm not really attacking the Spencer study, though I do have my doubts. My training is in biology, not atmospheric science, so I tend to leave my authoritative evaluations of scientific lit to the pros in areas that I'm not specialized in. My real point is that even if his findings are in fact 100% accurate, that doesn't change a thing about AGW theory, just some details about how cloud formation is affected by rising temperatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by GPS_Flex View Post
    Unfortunately it is going to be hit and miss as far as my ability to keep up with this dialogue as I will begin a new school semester on Monday and have plans to spend much of that time on the water with friends and family between now and then. I’ll do what I can to keep it going though.
    Alas, I'll be back to teaching next week as well!
    "A witty saying proves nothing." Voltaire

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    True. But neither are they insignificant. I'm on team nuclear... just not thrilled about it.
    I have worked in nuclear power. The biggest problem is not the manufacturing of the components for the plants, since most of those things would have to be done for coal burning plants anyway.

    The biggest problems with nuclear power are the amount of radioactive waste produced, and the amount of time it takes for the radiation levels of that waste to decay to safe levels, and the potential for a nuclear disaster. Now, we have lots of safety precautions to reduce the potential for a nuclear disaster to very low levels. The waste issue though is a real concern. We can't keep building up the amount of radioactive waste we do at the current levels.

    There are a lot of advantages to nuclear power over coal though. And there is much room for improvement. And that improvement is happening all the time.

    Nuclear power shouldn't be the final solution, but it is a very viable alternative that produces less pollution overall than fossil fuel energy as we continue to improve the technology, find viable clean, renewable resources, and reduce our overall power usage levels. It is unlikely that we will eliminate the use of all fossil fuels in the near future. But the more we use renewable and comparably cleaner resources to meet power demands, the more we a) reduce the pollution from fossil fuels and b) reduce actual consumption of fossil fuels to get them to last longer.
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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    I'm confused as to weather you're saying the IPCC conclusions are based on direct or indirect temperature records. It sort of doesn't matter however, as the IPCC cited hundreds of peer-reviewed articles using both types of sources, plus plenty of others that aren't about temperatures at all. I also disagree with your use of the word "primarily."

    First, it should be noted that the IPCC is a political body and that said “conclusions” are based upon achieving political objectives using handpicked scientific theories, and even misrepresentations thereof at times. I don’t trust the UN or even the federal government to control energy in the manner they are (using this issue as a means to an end) any more than I would trust them with control over food or water.


    As to whether the studies/models cited by AR4 use direct or indirect proxy measurements/data does in fact matter when considering AGW, as long as said long term studies/models are predicting quantifiable warming rates and validating their models with the same short term climate variability models Spencer used, they should be criticized by the same people that criticized Spencer for using them in the same manner.


    Even direct temperature measurements taken today incorporate proxy data and algorithms to normalize missing data that has been substituted with measurements from nearby stations. The older the measurements get, the more need there is to fill the holes. This isn’t even challenging the numerous methods used to determine the temperatures of the planet before measurements were taken so yes, “proxy” and “primarily” are appropriately descriptive terms in this instance.


    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    I'm not really attacking the Spencer study, though I do have my doubts. My training is in biology, not atmospheric science, so I tend to leave my authoritative evaluations of scientific lit to the pros in areas that I'm not specialized in. My real point is that even if his findings are in fact 100% accurate, that doesn't change a thing about AGW theory, just some details about how cloud formation is affected by rising temperatures.

    Spencer wasn’t attempting to overturn the AGW theory. He did show further flaws in the IPPC models and as such, has been relentlessly attacked by the usual (politically motivated) suspects. As to the irrelevance of the cause and effect of cloud formations, it is a pretty big deal actually. I think the more important point he made had to do with the time lapse that is causing problems with the IPPC models’ feedback estimations.


    I, like Spencer, have no doubt that global warming is occurring, believe that there is a likely anthropogenic contribution but have serious problems with the way this issue is handles politically, the way some of the studies have been done and models have been constructed and believe that the climate is a lot less sensitive to anthropogenic/co2 forcing than many would have us believe. Unfortunately any criticism of any AGW theories floating around out there or support of any criticism thereof is to be a heretic or an uneducated fool in today’s environment. Diversity of thought should be more celebrated than it is today, particularly when discussing scientific theories.


    Quote Originally Posted by nijato View Post
    Alas, I'll be back to teaching next week as well!
    You teach K-12 or collegiate?

    "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It would seem that the constitution is just a god damn piece of paper, to be trotted out when expedient.

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    Re: Evergreen Solar files for bankruptcy, plans asset sale

    You're trying to use one example to show the green energy won't create any jobs... massive failure. I don't know why some people have it out for green energy and think it's a waste of time, effort, and energy. Oh yeah, and it defiantly is creating jobs. My dad and his partner's firm has been getting a lot of business from the wind farm industry that is being created right now.

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