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Thread: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    You want congresspeople like figuring out the details of environmental regulations? That would be a total disaster... What do they know about it? They aren't even scientists....

    No, the role of Congress is to set general goals and make adjustments when something is going out of whack, not to micromanage everything.
    I wouldn't give Congress the power to micromanage everything, but it would be good to have these agencies under some sort of Congressional oversight. What we have now is bureaucrats making policy decisions that have the force of law. These people are not elected, and therefore not accountable to the voters or the people. Some Congressional oversight means that there is someone who is accountable involved in the process.


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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    The one and only moderate with any independent voter appeal finished in the middle of the pack. It's not too early to call 2012 for Obama.

    Well done Tea Party, everything you touch turns to crap. Thanks for the AA rating BTW.
    And here I thought it was the Republicans and the Democrats who ran up the debt. Now, I'm finding out that the Tea Part[ies] did it. My, oh, my!

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Whut? No no... you misunderstood. Show me where it states in the constitution that "Congress cannot participate directly in the administrative law process".

    Let me point you to
    Article 1, Section 8: The congress shall have the power....

    To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into executing the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.

    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

    Therefore Congress CAN in fact make a law that would incorporate the EPA as a part of the Government and not an independent entity, and provide oversight. The EPA is not part of the Executive branch, it is an "Independent Agency".

    Official US Executive Branch Web Sites - Newspaper and Current Periodical Reading Room (Serial and Government Publications Division, Library of Congress)

    (scroll down, bottom left under "Independent Agencies")


    So, now that this is all cleared up, not only is it possible that Congress CAN legislate the EPA oversight, it SHOULD in my opinion as well.
    Okay, my bad. You are right -- EPA is and independent agency and not an executive agency. That means that the President can appoint the head of the agency but he can only remove the head of the agency for cause.

    Nonetheless, you're still not getting it. Congress passes laws. Sometimes those laws include ENABLING CLAUSES which delegate authority to agencies -- executive and/or independent -- to promulgate regulations necessary to carry out the laws. The promulgation of regulations is carried out in accordance with the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) -- another law passed by Congress. Once Congress has delegated the authority to promulgate regulations, it cannot undelegate that authority without passing another law.

    What Congress cannot do is assume an executive function, such as overseeing an agency's day-to-day operation. You seem to want to divorce the bolded sentence in Art. 1, Sec. 8 from the first part of the sentence, which you cannot do. "All other powers" is modified by, "Congress shall have to power to make all laws...." In other words, Congress power is limited to legislating. They do not have the power to run agencies.

    Again, if they want to cancel a regulation they can do that by amending the law or passing a new law. They can't intervene directly in the promulgation of regulations.
    Last edited by AdamT; 08-15-11 at 07:10 PM.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    And here I thought it was the Republicans and the Democrats who ran up the debt. Now, I'm finding out that the Tea Part[ies] did it. My, oh, my!
    The TPs misunderstandings about basic economics prevented real solutions from being considered.

    And just so you know, the TP is nothing more than a rebranding of the GOP so disenfranchised RW voters will come back into the fold.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by vauge View Post
    I respect your opinion and you present good arguments, but from my point of view your position is very scary and part of the problem with our current system. The idea of overall regulation is good and grand in theory. Reality, IMO, is that it is very political and pockets always get filled with tax monies often with the premise of "health or overall good of the people". The only moral way to regulation is to remove that giant $$ handout temptation.
    I dunno. It's not like we're in Mexico or something. I'm sure there are situations, mostly at the county or city level, where politicians actually do give contracts to companies that bribed them or something, but I certainly don't think it is common, and I think it's almost unheard of at the federal level.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    I wouldn't give Congress the power to micromanage everything, but it would be good to have these agencies under some sort of Congressional oversight. What we have now is bureaucrats making policy decisions that have the force of law. These people are not elected, and therefore not accountable to the voters or the people. Some Congressional oversight means that there is someone who is accountable involved in the process.
    See I think there is that level of congressional oversight. They periodically have hearings about various EPA things. They can and do pass laws to change direction on various issues, to expand or contract discretion where they feel it is appropriate. The reality is that most the stuff the EPA does is below Congress's radar and beyond their expertise. Like "should this particular chemical be allowed in this industrial process or not?" type questions. Congress wouldn't add anything to those kinds of questions at all. They'd just politicize what should be handled by experts IMO.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    I dunno. It's not like we're in Mexico or something. I'm sure there are situations, mostly at the county or city level, where politicians actually do give contracts to companies that bribed them or something, but I certainly don't think it is common, and I think it's almost unheard of at the federal level.
    I think you may be in denial. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but a business man. BTW, have you heard of the word lobbyist? Do you know what they do?
    If you analyse it, I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. -Ronald Reagan

    I am also known as "vauge".

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., won the Iowa Straw poll on Saturday, turning aside a surge by Rep. Ron Paul of Texas and maintaining the momenum with her rising campaign.
    Woohooo! Best thing that could have happened ... for Democrats. There was no one loonier on that stage.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post

    Nonetheless, you're still not getting it. Congress passes laws. Sometimes those laws include ENABLING CLAUSES which delegate authority to agencies -- executive and/or independent -- to promulgate regulations necessary to carry out the laws. The promulgation of regulations is carried out in accordance with the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) -- another law passed by Congress. Once Congress has delegated the authority to promulgate regulations, it cannot undelegate that authority without passing another law.
    No really... I DO get it. It's still unconstitutional. Look I'm not one of these conttitutional conservatives, but our government has delegated away so much of it's authority and functions to independent agencies that Congress now has too much time to bicker over bull****. It's time they start doing their jobs and as a result of that, they will cut down the amount of work they need by trimming the size of the government. See it has this domino effect.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    What Congress cannot do is assume an executive function, such as overseeing an agency's day-to-day operation. You seem to want to divorce the bolded sentence in Art. 1, Sec. 8 from the first part of the sentence, which you cannot do. "All other powers" is modified by, "Congress shall have to power to make all laws...." In other words, Congress power is limited to legislating. They do not have the power to run agencies.
    I don't want them to run it, I want Congress to provide oversight. Oversight ≠ run.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Again, if they want to cancel a regulation they can do that by amending the law or passing a new law. They can't intervene directly in the promulgation of regulations.
    I'm fine with Congress making just laws. However, Congress can intervene directly with the regulations of the EPA, as the EPA is not under Executive control. Congress has the power to intervene, provide oversight or disband the EPA totally if they so choose.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post

    And here I thought it was the Republicans and the Democrats who ran up the debt. Now, I'm finding out that the Tea Part[ies] did it. My, oh, my!
    The vast majority of Teabaggers are Conservatives and the Tea Party itself is little more than the Republican party reinvented after they ran the nation's economy into the ground. Once Obama became president, the Republican party was left in such a shambles, it was in no position to challange Obama; so Conservatives, like the Phoenix rising from the ashes, started up the Tea Party. Most of the teabaggers are either Republican or former Republicans who left the party in disgust.
    Last edited by Sheik Yerbuti; 08-15-11 at 07:54 PM.

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