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Thread: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, EPA cannot create laws. What they can do is create regulations to implement laws. They are, of course, part of the executive branch, so they are answerable to the President who is answerable to the people.
    Thank you for that correction, but the President cannot willfully change the head of the EPA nor dictate what they do. Congress created their bylaws and when they create regulations as they go along, they are in effect legislating. They are a branch of the executive but to label them executive or legislative is not entirely accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The free market and legal system simply don't work very well when it comes to pollution. Say, for example, that you live in California and your air quality is being degraded by coal plants in the midwest. What are you going to do? Sue every utility in the midwest? How are you going to prove your case?
    I disagree. My position is that you should be able to sue every damned one of them, but you are right - the burden of proof is on you.
    If you analyse it, I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. -Ronald Reagan

    I am also known as "vauge".

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    All I'm saying is look at the evidence.

    You know that the Obama bailed out corporations, right? You know that Corporations gave big bucks to Obama. You also know that Unions gave big money to Obama. You also know that the private investors with 401K's who invested in these automakers got shafted as well, right? The Unions and their leaders got larger shares than anyone.
    No, Congress bailed out the corporations under both Bush and Obama.

    When you say "the unions got larger shares" you realize that what you mean is that the retirement funds which the workers had been promises their entire careers and upon which they relied were reduced by less than the investors would have liked. I can't see how anybody could possibly pay off an investor anything at all before the company has at the very least fulfilled it's commitments for the retirement plans of its employees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Is it the job of government to bail out private companies? No one can fail in America anymore? And everyone has not been paid back. Millions have been made on this scam, and it should all have been illegal, and probably was.
    No. Generally I oppose bailouts. But the bailouts are like 100th on the list of the top concerns of corporations. Slots #1 through #99 are occupied by wanting to eliminate regulations of various things. AKA not holding them accountable for what they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Are you saying Obama and the Democratic Congress (and Senate) didn't support this? It was Obama who was always talking it up, who spear-headed the whole thing, along with his friends.
    Obama spear-headed the whole thing? Bush and the Republicans pushed the banking bailouts through, largely over the opposition of the Democrats, before Obama even took office.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Obama contributed to the banking mess early in his working life, as did many others. By the time it got to Bush much of the damage was already iin place.
    Huh? You were mad about the bailout. Bush, not Obama, signed that into law. Not sure what you're talking about with Obama contributing to "the mess" early in his working life....

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    LOL!! Sure, tell that to the mob!
    What are you talking about? Are you alleging that unions have shareholders that collect dividends or something? Or what do you mean?

  3. #263
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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by vauge View Post
    I am confused. Congress created the EPA. EPA is an entity all in itself that answers to no one. They can create law on a whim for any reason.
    What exact "do good" incentive do they have?
    The EPA isn't answerable to no one. It's an executive agency subject to congressional oversight.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    And the government can run the courts according to the Constitution, legal precedence and the will of the people. That's fine. But it doesn't have to be involved in everything.

    Private industry can investigate and, if laws are being broken or regulations not being met , they can take this evidence to the courts in order that justice be done.
    Yes the courts are one option for how the government can protect people from corporations. But, again, that isn't a good approach for all situations. If you need the ability to gain access to the site or whatever for inspections, that needs to be a government agency with some kind of investigatory power. If you want to prevent, rather than compensate for, behavior, then you need government regulations. Etc.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well, that's how our government works.
    I agree... that IS the way it works. That's why I view things the way I do, and why our government needs to be reduced in size and scope.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Thank you for that correction, but the President cannot willfully change the head of the EPA nor dictate what they do.
    That is incorrect. The President can fire the head of EPA whenever he chooses and appoint a new director to replace him or her. The appointment has to be approved by Congress.

    Congress created their bylaws and when they create regulations as they go along, they are in effect legislating.
    Again, this is incorrect. As a matter of law no egency can legislate.

    They are a branch of the executive but to label them executive or legislative is not entirely accurate.
    It is entirely accurate.

    My position is that you should be able to sue every damned one of them, but you are right - the burden of proof is on you.
    You can sue them, but as a practical matter it's quite impossible unless you can put together a large class action. Many laws administered by EPA, e.g. the Clean Water Act, specifically provide for citizen suits that allow private citizens to sue for damages.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    The EPA isn't answerable to no one. It's an executive agency subject to congressional oversight.
    Congress did not pass nor review, nor provide oversight to the 2011 (or any other version for that matter) Code of Federal Regulations. Can you give an example of Congressional oversight on the EPA because my limited search on the subject matter identifies that the Congress does NOT have oversight responsibilities of the EPA. The Congress did reduce the amount of regulations the EPA can write 30+ years ago but does not have the ability to overturn regulations they do write. In fact, many of the articles I reviewed identify farmers and western states who are having water disputes want Congress to exert oversight of the EPA. Rand Paul recently had this little nugget to say about it:

    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Congress did not pass nor review, nor provide oversight to the 2011 (or any other version for that matter) Code of Federal Regulations. Can you give an example of Congressional oversight on the EPA because my limited search on the subject matter identifies that the Congress does NOT have oversight responsibilities of the EPA. The Congress did reduce the amount of regulations the EPA can write 30+ years ago but does not have the ability to overturn regulations they do write. In fact, many of the articles I reviewed identify farmers and western states who are having water disputes want Congress to exert oversight of the EPA. Rand Paul recently had this little nugget to say about it:

    Congress cannot participate directly in the administrative law process. What they can do, if they want to, is sue the EPA, alleging that a regulation exceeds the granted legislative authority, or they can pass another law specifically taking away legislative authority.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Congress did not pass nor review, nor provide oversight to the 2011 (or any other version for that matter) Code of Federal Regulations. Can you give an example of Congressional oversight on the EPA because my limited search on the subject matter identifies that the Congress does NOT have oversight responsibilities of the EPA. The Congress did reduce the amount of regulations the EPA can write 30+ years ago but does not have the ability to overturn regulations they do write. In fact, many of the articles I reviewed identify farmers and western states who are having water disputes want Congress to exert oversight of the EPA. Rand Paul recently had this little nugget to say about it:
    Yeah, thats what oversight is. They can remove power from the EPA or change any given regulation at any time by passing a law. The president can change the way the EPA conducts itself within those parameters any time he wants by hiring and firing anybody he likes from the agency. So, if the EPA does something you don't like, really you can blame both Congress and the president. If you research the individual issue a bit you could figure out which one it makes more sense to blame for that particular thing. For example, if it is a broad regulation that the EPA established a long time ago, Congress would be the one to blame, but if it is something like underenforcement in a particular case, then the president would be the one to blame.

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    Re: Bachmann wins Iowa straw poll, keeps momentum

    Quote Originally Posted by teamosil View Post
    Yeah, thats what oversight is. They can remove power from the EPA or change any given regulation at any time by passing a law. The president can change the way the EPA conducts itself within those parameters any time he wants by hiring and firing anybody he likes from the agency. So, if the EPA does something you don't like, really you can blame both Congress and the president. If you research the individual issue a bit you could figure out which one it makes more sense to blame for that particular thing. For example, if it is a broad regulation that the EPA established a long time ago, Congress would be the one to blame, but if it is something like underenforcement in a particular case, then the president would be the one to blame.
    Restricting the EPA's scope of regulation is not oversight. It was punitive action. Oversight is also not a one time ocurrance but is constant. I don't want to blame anyone, I would rather see the problem fixed - two problems fixed actually:

    1.) Put the EPA under Congressional oversight
    2.) Put the Treasury under Congressional oversight


    Isn't it about time these bums in Washington earn their keep and do some work instead of compalining and bitching about each other on camera then turning around and making backroom deals off camera? Perhaps if we kept them busier they'd have less opportunity to think up new and inventive ways to screw the American people.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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