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Thread: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

  1. #91
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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I agree that we should have the public option but it wasn't an either/or situation. The mandate is necessary to address the free rider problem with or without the public option.

    The amazing thing about the resistance to the mandate is that it was originally a Republican idea and it was sold on the basis of personal responsibility. No one should be allowed to sponge free health care because they are too cheap to buy insurance for themselves and their families. Free riders raise costs for responsible members of society who do buy insurance.

    If you drill down into this issue you reach another bizarre pinnacle of conservative illogic. The conservative response is that we should illiminate the free rider problem by simply denying medical care to anyone who doesn't have insurance, or who can't pay for it up front. Of course that puts far more pressure on individuals to purchase insurance than does any mandate, which is enforced with a modest fine. So the conservative conclusion is that it's abhorent to compel someone to buy health insurance through a modest fine, but it's perfectly okay to compel people to buy insurance through the threat that they may be left for dead if they don't! Genius.
    I don't have a problem with the mandate myself. I see the public option as being necessary. It was a better way to go overall. UHC better still. But, I agree if we're going to do away with pre-existing conditions and such, you have to have a mandate. What I think some miss is that without the mandate, the things they want won't happen. It is that disconnect. And yes, those who oppose the mandate often suffer from the disconnect you speak of, not understanding the pressures well enough.

    They won't say we can refuse to treat emergencies, which means we will treat people who can't pay, but are willing to leave people who can't pay for lessor treatments without care, which in the long run will lead either to early death or more expensive care. If we look at health care as public health issue, I think it becomes less objectionable to us public funds.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If we look at health care as public health issue, I think it becomes less objectionable to us public funds.
    Exactly. Keep changing the terminology and the euphemisms until it becomes publicly acceptable.

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Exactly. Keep changing the terminology and the euphemisms until it becomes publicly acceptable.
    Not exactly what I'm doing. It is a public health issue.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not exactly what I'm doing. It is a public health issue.
    How is my paying for your liposuction a public health issue?

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    How is my paying for your liposuction a public health issue?
    Didn't say it was. However, a gastroplasty might be. Diabetes is an expensive illness, and being morbidly obese can lead to heatlh concerns that sooner or later will lead to the person bring in the ER, needing emergency treatment with no one pay for that care.

    No one says you can get anything you want. Some things have always been considered elective, cosmetic, and denied by even your insurance company. What we're discussing is minimal and needed care, that which keeps the entire community healthier, helping to prevent outbreaks that come from people not seeing doctors, not caring for their health due to lack of funds, access and what comes with being part of the working poor.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Didn't say it was. However, a gastroplasty might be. Diabetes is an expensive illness, and being morbidly obese can lead to heatlh concerns that sooner or later will lead to the person bring in the ER, needing emergency treatment with no one pay for that care.

    No one says you can get anything you want. Some things have always been considered elective, cosmetic, and denied by even your insurance company. What we're discussing is minimal and needed care, that which keeps the entire community healthier, helping to prevent outbreaks that come from people not seeing doctors, not caring for their health due to lack of funds, access and what comes with being part of the working poor.
    There is a clear and convincing case that can be made for public health and frankly I don't know any anti-ObamaCare people who oppose government funding for public health. Public health spending is a classic case of something that only government can do and which benefits the entire community.

    Paying for your care after you have a heart attack does not fall into that category. The provision of such care doesn't "keep the entire community healthier" in the manner of public health spending. If you drop dead of a heart attack, I and my family are still perfectly healthy. If you are spreading ebola all over the place then your lack of heath services does affect everyone else.

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    There is a clear and convincing case that can be made for public health and frankly I don't know any anti-ObamaCare people who oppose government funding for public health. Public health spending is a classic case of something that only government can do and which benefits the entire community.

    Paying for your care after you have a heart attack does not fall into that category. The provision of such care doesn't "keep the entire community healthier" in the manner of public health spending. If you drop dead of a heart attack, I and my family are still perfectly healthy. If you are spreading ebola all over the place then your lack of heath services does affect everyone else.
    Well, you have a heart attack. YOu don't have either money or insurance. Will the hospital let you die? If not, what happens after they revive you and send you home with that huge bill? The care doesn't stop then? What is the effect on the community? Your family?

    You go home, no meds, another heart attack. Back in the ER. More care that you can't pay for, and we start the cycle again. Eventually you die, but depending on serverity and specifics, this can go on awhile.

    It is part of the fabric of the community, public. It effects costs, use of resources, overall ability of the community to handle the needs of the community.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    [QUOTE=RiverDad;1059734613]There is a clear and convincing case that can be made for public health and frankly I don't know any anti-ObamaCare people who oppose government funding for public health. Public health spending is a classic case of something that only government can do and which benefits the entire community.QUOTE]

    Where do you think Government funds some from? There is no Money Fairy to magically hand over the billions it's going to cost if this rubbish is not stopped by the Supreme Court.

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman1059734624
    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    There is a clear and convincing case that can be made for public health and frankly I don't know any anti-ObamaCare people who oppose government funding for public health. Public health spending is a classic case of something that only government can do and which benefits the entire community.
    Where do you think Government funds some from? There is no Money Fairy to magically hand over the billions it's going to cost if this rubbish is not stopped by the Supreme Court.
    I hate to defend RD, but he never suggested there was money tooth fairy.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Appeals court rules against Obama healthcare law

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    Where do you think Government funds some from? There is no Money Fairy to magically hand over the billions it's going to cost if this rubbish is not stopped by the Supreme Court.
    If you want to dispute what I write then please pay attention to what I write. Public health is not the same as publicly funded health care. The example of an ebola epidemic might have been a clue.

    Government provision of public heath services is what the Center For Disease Control is doing. They track epidemics and communicable disease. Public vaccinations benefit all of society and not just those who are vaccinated.

    The money for this must come from taxes, just like with defense and policing. Public health, also like defense, border security, and policing, is a public good, that is it is a good that is very hard for the private sector to provide.

    Lastly, the Supreme Court isn't hearing any cases on Public Health. They're hearing a case on Obama Care.

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