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Thread: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    So what you are saying, the issue is that businesses do not need to hire? Please remember the difference between a want and a need.
    What do you expect to accomplish by posting that over and over?

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    Wouldn't it make sense to look at what has worked in the past?

    Why cloud the issue with all this partisan gum flapping?

    The issue for the People is domestic stability, growth and security. Period. The American People, by and large, have no foreign interests.

    Cutting the military back to 2001 or even 2003 levels will still give us the ability to reduce any country on earth to rubble in a week or less... never putting a boot on the ground. Every patriotic American should know this, and know that every other country on the planet knows this.

    The only foreign interests America has... are business interests. Not freedom or democracy (though it's a nice side benefit if it happens) as we have supported or installed over 25 tinpot dictators. Business interests dictate foreign policy for the most part. Therefore, if we find ourselves fighting somewhere, you can bet more often than not there is a profit motive behind it for a very few but influential. Our military is too often used to enforce those business interests.

    These business interests exercise super human influence among Our Public servants. By shear fact that the directors can and do add the voice and resources of those corporations to their own constitutionally protected individual voice, they subvert the constitutionally protected guarantee of equal representation.

    Raising taxes to levels consistent with past successful emergency debt reduction is also common sense. The wealthy were still wealthy, the super wealthy still became more super wealthy.

    Cutting entitlements only by ridding the system of abusers which would result in massive savings and allow those left on entitlements (those that truly need it) to see meaningful streamlining of the programs. Social Security for seniors is NOT an entitlement. Each working adult pay in... it's their freakin money.
    I will agree to tax increases when someone explains the following to me

    Why did Democrats agree to $1 in tax increases for every $3 in spending cuts during the GHW Bush Administration and then renege on the spending cuts?

    Explain to me how tax increases put 25 million unemployed or under employed Americans back to work full time paying full taxes?

    Who pays those tax increases and does that change the 70 million income earning Americans who pay zero in Federal Income taxes forcing them to pay something?

    Answer those to my satisfaction and I will agree with tax increases

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    So what you are saying, the issue is that businesses do not need to hire? Please remember the difference between a want and a need.
    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    What do you expect to accomplish by posting that over and over?
    Businesses don't hire unless the marginal efficiency of investment is going to be worth it. As of right now, most businesses simply find it cheaper to increase productivity through buying more machinery and capital than through hiring additional workers.

    But I disagree with the notion that, with regards to hiring at least, a tax credit =/= a tax cut. In both cases the business owner is being given back money by the gov't. In BOTH cases it is entirely possible for the business owner to simply pocket/save the money and not hire the workers if the marginal efficiency of investment is simply not worth it.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    I will agree to tax increases when someone explains the following to me

    Why did Democrats agree to $1 in tax increases for every $3 in spending cuts during the GHW Bush Administration and then renege on the spending cuts?

    Explain to me how tax increases put 25 million unemployed or under employed Americans back to work full time paying full taxes?

    Who pays those tax increases and does that change the 70 million income earning Americans who pay zero in Federal Income taxes forcing them to pay something?

    Answer those to my satisfaction and I will agree with tax increases
    What a silly argument. The point of raising taxes is to reduce the deficit -- not to create jobs. The same goes for cutting spending. Cutting spending reduces employment. So why should we cut spending? Because we have to lower the deficit -- same reason we need to boost revenue.

    You need to get over your obsession with people who aren't paying income taxes. Most of them are poor/unemployed, students, or elderly/retired people. You've previously stated that you are retired. I guess we can assume, then, that you are primarily living on benefits and capital gains, and thus paying an exceptionally low rate?

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Businesses don't hire unless the marginal efficiency of investment is going to be worth it. As of right now, most businesses simply find it cheaper to increase productivity through buying more machinery and capital than through hiring additional workers.

    But I disagree with the notion that, with regards to hiring at least, a tax credit =/= a tax cut. In both cases the business owner is being given back money by the gov't. In BOTH cases it is entirely possible for the business owner to simply pocket/save the money and not hire the workers if the marginal efficiency of investment is simply not worth it.
    Nice post!

    I would only add that this is more true of established business. Most businesses don't turn a profit until after year five. Once this has been achieved capital investment into new equipment is easier than hiring. Prior to that, hiring is the best way to manage growth.

    For this reason, growth among smaller businesses is percentage wise, exponentially higher than that of established business, and why most job creation is with small business, not large corps.

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    What a silly argument. The point of raising taxes is to reduce the deficit -- not to create jobs. The same goes for cutting spending. Cutting spending reduces employment. So why should we cut spending? Because we have to lower the deficit -- same reason we need to boost revenue.

    You need to get over your obsession with people who aren't paying income taxes. Most of them are poor/unemployed, students, or elderly/retired people. You've previously stated that you are retired. I guess we can assume, then, that you are primarily living on benefits and capital gains, and thus paying an exceptionally low rate?
    Raising taxes doesn't increase revenue when you have 25 million unemployed or under employed not paying much in taxes. Do you spend more of your money when you have less take home pay? You think that human behavior doesn't play a role in the amount of revenue collected?

    You don't seem to get it, over 65 million INCOME EARNERS9(NOT UNEMPLOYED) aren't paying ANY FIT because of tax laws yet your obsession is raising taxes on the employers and rich people as if they aren't going to change their behavior with less personal income due to tax hikes. What you don't seem to understand is that we don't need a 3.7 trillion dollar govt.

    Haven't seen an answer to the questions posed, not surprising because the answer would destroy your argument.

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    Nice post!

    I would only add that this is more true of established business. Most businesses don't turn a profit until after year five. Once this has been achieved capital investment into new equipment is easier than hiring. Prior to that, hiring is the best way to manage growth.

    For this reason, growth among smaller businesses is percentage wise, exponentially higher than that of established business, and why most job creation is with small business, not large corps.
    No one is hiring as evidenced by the unemployment data, 25 million Americans are unemployed, under employed, or dropped out of the labor market because large and small businesses are certain that their costs aren't going down until this Administration is replaced. The best phrase small business can hear today is "Barack Obama, your fired!"

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Raising taxes doesn't increase revenue when you have 25 million unemployed or under employed not paying much in taxes. Do you spend more of your money when you have less take home pay? You think that human behavior doesn't play a role in the amount of revenue collected?

    You don't seem to get it, over 65 million INCOME EARNERS9(NOT UNEMPLOYED) aren't paying ANY FIT because of tax laws yet your obsession is raising taxes on the employers and rich people as if they aren't going to change their behavior with less personal income due to tax hikes. What you don't seem to understand is that we don't need a 3.7 trillion dollar govt.

    Haven't seen an answer to the questions posed, not surprising because the answer would destroy your argument.
    Huh, it's gone from 70 million income earners to 65 million income earners who don't pay taxes in one post. Do you have any links for these figures you're citing?

    In any case, of course raising taxes increases revenue. We saw that very clearly under Clinton, and we saw very clearly under Reagan and Bush that cutting taxes reduces revenue.

    You seemt be arguing against yourself. On the one hand you complain because x number of people aren't paying taxes, and then you complain that taxes should not be reaised. Which is it?

    What you really seem to be saying is that we should cut taxes for the rich and increase taxes on the poor and middle class. Isn't that right? And that, of course, WOULD reduce consumer demand, because the poor and middle class have comparativel little (or no) disposable income. Raise their taxes and it will translate directly to reduced consumption. The same is not true of very wealthy people who have more disposable income than they typically utilize.

    I have answered your question on whether we need a $3.7 trillion government at least three times now and you simply refuse to acknowledge it because you have no answer to my response.

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    No one is hiring as evidenced by the unemployment data, 25 million Americans are unemployed, under employed, or dropped out of the labor market because large and small businesses are certain that their costs aren't going down until this Administration is replaced. The best phrase small business can hear today is "Barack Obama, your fired!"
    To the contrary: the private sector is hiring but that hiring is being offset in large part by layoffs in the public sector -- the consequence of lowering government spending.

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    tell me how raising taxes puts 25 million unemployed and under employed Americans back to work? The only ones calling for tax increases are those liberals who haven't a clue and believe we have a revenue problem and not a spending problems. When you compromise with a liberal you always get tax increases but never spending cuts.
    You're the one who called for massive tax hikes on american workers
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