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Thread: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

  1. #411
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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Why is it that so many liberals manage to correctly assess the correct tax policy when it comes to reducing gasoline consumption and getting more people to take advantage of public transport and yet they lose all sense of the principles underlying that decision when it comes time to taxing income.

    When you tax something you get less of it. Raise taxes on gas consumption and you get less usage of gas. Raise taxes on tobacco and people smoke less. However when it comes time to taxing income liberals seem to think that, unlike with gas and tobacco and the dynamic response, that behavior regarding income will remain static, that people won't change their behavior and the result would simply be a windfall of tax revenue for the treasury.



    Look at how the marginal tax rates have changed over the years and then take a look at the revenue. What you're seeing a dynamic effect, people change their behavior in response to a tax. There is no massive windfall from raising taxes, rather the economy slows so the result becomes a wash and tax revenue stays at about the same level.
    Thus the saying that figures never lie, but liars figure. Hauser applies smoothing algorithms to mask vast changes. Due to the scale of your graph, changes as significant as 3% of GDP appear to be insignificant. But as we know, a 3% swing of GDP can have monumental conequences.

    Last edited by AdamT; 08-07-11 at 02:26 AM.

  2. #412
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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    The chart fails to mention that the government has over stepped it enumerated powers from 18 to over 22,000, it has a spending problem and a constitutional problem.
    Unfortunately the Republican Party wants to curb the spending by cutting the programs that benefit the middle-class and the poor, while extending tax cuts to the rich and corporations. Definitely cut back spending, but until the wealthy and corporations are made to pay their fair share, we will not end the problem, it is only going to get worse.

    Many corporations have not paid one red cent in taxes for years, yet continue to receive refund checks based on dubious and illegal tax dodges they have devised.

    The Tea Party and presidential hopefuls like Bachmann, have taken hold of an already conservative Republican party. They vowed to vote no on raising the debt ceiling, creating a crisis that put many companies on edge. Their ignorance will bring on the hidden tax of "higher interest rates" for everybody - a tax that will benefit only the wealthy and cause untold hardships for many here in the US and abroad.

    The rich get loopholes and we get collapsing bridges, decaying schools and potholes in our roads. CEO's being taxed at a rate that is half of what their secretaries make is unjustified.



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





  3. #413
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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Unfortunately the Republican Party wants to curb the spending by cutting the programs that benefit the middle-class and the poor, while extending tax cuts to the rich and corporations. Definitely cut back spending, but until the wealthy and corporations are made to pay their fair share, we will not end the problem, it is only going to get worse.

    Many corporations have not paid one red cent in taxes for years, yet continue to receive refund checks based on dubious and illegal tax dodges they have devised.

    The Tea Party and presidential hopefuls like Bachmann, have taken hold of an already conservative Republican party. They vowed to vote no on raising the debt ceiling, creating a crisis that put many companies on edge. Their ignorance will bring on the hidden tax of "higher interest rates" for everybody - a tax that will benefit only the wealthy and cause untold hardships for many here in the US and abroad.

    The rich get loopholes and we get collapsing bridges, decaying schools and potholes in our roads. CEO's being taxed at a rate that is half of what their secretaries make is unjustified.
    You solve all this by returning to a government which operates within it's constitutional boundaries and the states reasserting it's states rights.

  4. #414
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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Thus the saying that figures never lie, but liars figure. Hauser applies smoothing algorithms to mask vast changes. Due to the scale of your graph, changes as significant as 3% of GDP appear to be insignificant. But as we know, a 3% swing of GDP can have monumental conequences.
    Your "refutation" of Hauser's graph doesn't achieve it's aim for it confirms what Hauser's Law claims, that tax revenue as a percent of GDP moves within a very narrow range.

    Looking at your graph, the average tax revenue as a percent of GDP is 19.3% with a fleeting blip up to 21% right at the end of the Dot-com bubble. This narrow range was maintained during a period which saw tax rates vary between 92% and 28%.

    Liberals are contending that we don't have a spending problem, rather it's a lack of revenue problem. The Obama budget forecasts for the future are predicated on program spending hitting the 26% of GDP mark.



    If we could only hit the 21% of GDP mark with the help of a dot-com asset bubble, and we couldn't do it with top marginal tax rates at 92%, then how on earth do you guys figure that we're going to be able to raise enough tax revenue to cover the increased program spending which is going to amount to 26% of GDP?

    Are you guys planning on instituting taxes of 150% in order to find a stable relationship between revenue and spending?

    We've got a huge spending problem.

    You're take-down of Hauser is ineffective because the smoothing within the range of 19% was never the point. In a sense you've knocked down a strawman. Good job.

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by mertex View Post
    Definitely cut back spending, but until the wealthy and corporations are made to pay their fair share, we will not end the problem, it is only going to get worse.
    What is a fair share? The top 1% (those with taxable incomes of $380,354 or more) paid 38.02% of all income taxes. The top 5% (those with taxable incomes of $159,619 or more) paid 58.72% of all income taxes. The top 10% (those with taxable incomes of $113,799 or more) paid 69.94% of all income taxes. The top 25% (those with taxable incomes of $67,280) paid 86.34% of all incomes taxes.

    That's more than a fair share that they're paying. The US already has the MOST Progressive tax system amongst the OECD countries. We take more from successful people than do the socialist wonderlands in Europe.

    Look at this table:

    Share of taxes of richest decile:

    United States: 45.1%
    Canada: 35.8%
    France: 28%
    Germany: 31.2%

    Be careful what you ask for. If you want fairness, then if we go by international standards, and go for the OECD mean, we'd have to make our income tax system less progressive so that we got to the 31.6% level, meaning lower the taxes on the rich and increasing them on the middle class and poor. That would be fair because it would be what other countries are doing.

    For god's sakes, the top 25% already pay 86% of all income taxes. Isn't that enough? Isn't that far more than fair?

    Shouldn't you be saying thank you to all of them for doing more than their fair share?

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post

    Shouldn't you be saying thank you to all of them for doing more than their fair share?

    Uhmm no, the flip slid to that POV is how much do these people get to own. And it far out weighs merely the dollars.

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Uhmm no, the flip slid to that POV is how much do these people get to own. And it far out weighs merely the dollars.
    This doesn't surprise me. Envious people are not really known for expressing gratitude.

    Look, when someone builds a fortune, that fortune is earned, not gifted to them by society.

    If I invent a widget which make your life easier, freeing up an hour of your day for you to do something else, and you buy it from me, then I've created new wealth that didn't exist in the world before. I've made you more productive when you use my widget. When I sell my widget to 100,000,000 people I've made those people more productive in their lives. I've created a whole lot of wealth and I've captured most of it because without me the widget wouldn't have been invented. You haven't done me any favors in helping me build a fortune. When you bought the widget for yourself you bought it because you thought the price I charged was fair and that by buying the widget you would be improving your own life. You bought the widget for selfish reasons, not to help me make a bundle.

    Liberal envy must be one of the most horrible manifestations to ever be visited on the earth. It poisons people's souls worse than racism.

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    The federal government's financial condition deteriorated rapidly last year, far beyond the $1.5 trillion in new debt taken on to finance the budget deficit, a USA TODAY analysis shows.

    The government added $5.3 trillion in new financial obligations in 2010, largely for retirement programs such as Medicare and Social Security. That brings to a record $61.6 trillion the total of financial promises not paid for.

    Medicare alone took on $1.8 trillion in new liabilities, more than the record deficit prompting heated debate between Congress and the White House over lifting the debt ceiling.

    Social Security added $1.4 trillion in obligations, partly reflecting longer life expectancies. Federal and military retirement programs added more to the financial hole, too.
    U.S. funding for future promises lags by trillions - USATODAY.com

    exactly what portion of the 5.3 trillion does the party in power intend to make good thru tax hikes?

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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P


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    Re: United States loses its AAA Credit rating from S & P

    The good news is that I have not been banned from this thread, yet. That will happen a few days into the future. :-)

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