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Thread: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    It was 1.7 (ish) when he got there, 4.9 (ish) when he left. He DID reside over just about triple the debt increase in 8 years. In today's terms, they spent just over $2 trillion more in 8 years than we've spent in 4. At the current rate, we will more than double the debt that existed in 2009 by the time Obama serves two terms. In today's terms, Reagan spent $7.23 trillion in 8 years, and we'll spend over $12 trillion.

    The trick is the whole "triple, double" thing. Tripling the debt sounds worse than doubling it, but if your starting debt when you triple is only $1.7 trillion, but it's $10 trillion when you double it, it's easy to see how the actual amount can be more significant than the total percentage increase.
    There are a number of problems with your post here which indicate a lack of understanding.

    1) you are assuming that nothing will change, when things always change. Saying "well, if nothing changes" is a stupid comment, since things always change. It shows you want to believe the worst instead of are looking for real information.

    2) triple is an exact measure of what it is, a comparison of starting to ending amounts.

    3) We have already discussed the role of inflation and such, and then you go right back to trying to ignore it since it is inconvenient to your argument.
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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I don't worship any politican. So there's that.

    As for the rest of it...We were just talking the flat increase as it related to the original total. I'm not blaming any specific policy or program or any specific person for the increase. I'm saying it is wholly unacceptable and must be slowed, and then stopped for the sake of our credit rating, our economy, and our future obligations. The spending is excessive regardless of the reasoning behind it.
    What do you think will be the effect on the economy of taking a large chunk out of it during the early portion of a recovery? Hint: look at GDP growth post stimulus compared to during the stimulus.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Indeed. Goddamn you conservatives. We of course are part of a dictatorship where you all had complete control and chose to delay this out of singularly your own choice.

    ...wait a second...

    No, sorry, I got that wrong. We are a dictatorship, but we're a dictatorship under the Democratic Party, so the Republicans should've just did exactly what the Democrats wanted and dealt with it because we're not a representitive republic where people are elected by their constituents to push for their desires but rather are a dictatorship under teh Democratic Party. Silly me. Damn you conservatives! Damn you to hell for not doing exactly what the Democrats wanted.

    ...wait, no wait another second...

    Oh that's right, we are a represnetitive republic. Both sides have one of the chambers of congress and one side also has the Presidency. Despite that, NEITHER side was able to actually fashion a bill that was able to get support from the other side until the past days. Both sides choices are the reason it took until the 11th hour for this to be done, not just one. But far be it for me to expect hyper partisans to pass up a chance to bash bash bash one sidedly for the sake of political points.
    I agree with you 100%, but don't you see? Had Republicans agreed to a clean debt ceiling from the start instead of insisting on tying spending cuts to raising same we could have saved the public billions!

    Now, I agree we need to get our fiscal house in order, but debt and deficit reduction could (and should) have been dealt with separate from raising the debt limit same as closing tax loopholes or reforming same along with reforming Social Security and Medicare. But instead of listening to the President who stated we could wait and work on reforming Social Security after raising the debt limit or that we already made cuts to Medicare in the health care reform law, pundits still sought to affix entitlement reform, tax reform and deficit reduction measures (spending cuts) to raising the debt limit. ALL SUCH ACTIONS WERE WRONG! WRONG TIME, WRONG VENUE TO SEEK REFORMS!! And look at what it cost the America in public currency and national prestige' abroad?
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 08-02-11 at 02:31 PM.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    obama includes much of stimulus spending in his baseline
    And your point?

    we were told unemployment would be 6.5% by now
    No, you weren't told that. That was an overly optimistic projection. The same projection estimated that unemployment would be under 8% even without stimulus.

    no panic, but at 61.6T under and sinking 5.3 further each year, if something isn't done imminently to fundamentally restructure our budgets, then our big 3 federal programs (as well as state pensions) will simply not be there as we expect them for our next generation
    We aren't running a $5 trillion+ deficit. I certainly agree that we need to start working on entitlement reform.
    Last edited by AdamT; 08-02-11 at 02:30 PM.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Cooperate with what exactly? This was a manufactured crisis by the right in order to hold the nation and its economy hostage. Do you cooperate with that or squash that sort of treason like a bug?

    Obama made the wrong decision. He refuses to accept that this is a WAR and there is an ENEMY which must be vanquished.
    It was a manufactured crisis by the right. Nobody can honestly say our debt isn't a big problem, but the right held a gun to all of our heads, exceeding the debt limit would not stop the spending, it would make borrowing more expensive for all of us. The right does this because they know the left cares more about our country will eventually say "uncle."

    I think President Obama should have written an executive order to raise or eliminate the debt ceiling. Then the right can fight it in the courts or try to impeach him.


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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I agree with you 100%, but don't you see? Had Republicans agreed to a clean debt ceiling from the start instead of insisting on tying spending cuts to raising same we could have saved the public billions!

    Now, I agree we need to get our fiscal house in order, but debt and deficit reduction could (and should) have been dealt with separate from raising the debt limit same as closing tax loopholes or reforming same along with reforming Social Security and Medicare. But instead of listening to the President who stated we could wait and work on reforming Social Security after raising the debt limit or that we already made cuts to Medicare in the health care reform law, pundits still sought to affix entitlement reform, tax reform and deficit reduction measures (spending cuts) to raising the debt limit. ALL SUCH ACTIONS WERE WRONG! WRONG TIME, WRONG VENUE TO SEEK REFORMS!! And look at what it cost the America in public currency and national prestige' abroad?
    Exactly!
    ...


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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    And your point?
    much of stimulus spending is permanent

    That was an overly optimistic projection
    LOL!

    it sure was

    and it was made by the chair of obama's council of economic advisers and the president's chief economist and economic policy adviser

    The same projection estimated that unemployment would be under 8% even without stimulus
    no, romer-bernstein tops at 9.3, q2, 2010

    I certainly agree that we need to start working on entitlement reform
    few care about your opinions, the world is not your mom

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    much of stimulus spending is permanent
    In other words, you don't understand how budgets work.


    LOL!

    it sure was

    and it was made by the chair of obama's council of economic advisers and the president's chief economist and economic policy adviser
    Yes, that's right. Economic projection is never easy, particularly when faced with a worst-in-three-generations recession. I don't consider being off by +/- 2% to be so dramatic.


    no, romer-bernstein tops at 9.3, q2, 2010
    Pay attention. What I'm saying is that, based upon the graph you provided, Romer predicted that unemployment would *presently* be under 8% even without stimulus spending.

    Again, she clearly underestimated the severity of the recession.

    few care about your opinions, the world is not your mom
    Did you just go into some kind of fugue state?
    Last edited by AdamT; 08-02-11 at 02:49 PM.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Now, I agree we need to get our fiscal house in order, but debt and deficit reduction could (and should) have been dealt with separate from raising the debt limit same as closing tax loopholes or reforming same along with reforming Social Security and Medicare.
    I agree that it should have been. I disagree that it could have been, though. Democrats would never have agreed to cuts outside of this framework.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    LOL!

    do you KNOW the crfb?

    CRFB warned last year when the stimulus was enacted that there would be enormous pressures to not only extend some of the ARRA measure, but even make them permanent. Doing so is a violation of the principle that stimulus should be timely, targeted, and temporary.

    Yet we predicted last January that the Making Work Pay tax credit, the EITC, Pell grants, American Opportunity tax credit, COBRA subsidies, and child support enforcement match were at risk of being extended or made permanent because the President included them in his campaign promises. It turns out we were right. The Making Work Pay tax credit and the COBRA subsidies are being extended temporarily, as explained above. The others, in this budget, are made permanent.

    ARRA Policies Made Permanant in the President's Budget (billions)

    2010-2020
    Expand earned income tax credit+ $30
    Expand child tax credit+ $83
    Pell Grants+ $187
    AMT patch (index 2009 parameters to inflation) $659
    Extend American opportunity tax credit $75
    Extend child support enforcement incentive match $1
    Total $1,035

    Total Excluding AMT Patch
    $376

    In fact, the budget includes over $1 trillion to extend policies which were enacted under the ARRA. In fairness, the majority of this money comes from continued AMT patches -- something which was "current policy" long before it was put into the stimulus bill (which is why it should not have been there in the first place). However, even when this is excluded, the budget spends at least $376 billion to make permanent ARRA measures. Worse still, many of these policies are included in the baseline, hidden away as "current policy" when they in fact are anything but. (Following our blog post on this, the Wall Street Journal called the ARRA 'The Eternal Stimulus'.)

    This is why we have argued repeatedly that stimulus should stimulate, not push an agenda. And to keep policy makers honest, we believe that all future stilmulus spending should be be fully offset -- even if these offsets occur in the out-years. Otherwise, the medicine meant to heal an unhealthy economy can become addictive, and ultimately do far more harm than good.
    link above

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