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Thread: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Last edited by StillBallin75; 08-02-11 at 02:13 PM.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    I provided you with a comparison between 1982 and today. Today, the debt under Reagan would equate to about 7.23 trillion. So using today's numbers, we've almost matched in 4 years what took 8 years when he was president.
    Yes, but you forgot to factor in a much higher tax income and the lack of 2 wars, plus a financial melt down not seen since the 1930s and so on. Just saying, it is not that easy to make comparisons without factoring in all the many differences that attributed to each President's "raise" in the debt and even deficit and it is especially difficult considering the partisan "fog of war" both sides like to throw in... like the conservatives holding Reagan up as some sort of God despite his many many flaws (he was a tax raiser!!!!).
    PeteEU

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What was Reagan's starting and ending deficit? Why don't you want to look at the whole picture?
    It was 1.7 (ish) when he got there, 4.9 (ish) when he left. He DID reside over just about triple the debt increase in 8 years. In today's terms, they spent just over $2 trillion more in 8 years than we've spent in 4. At the current rate, we will more than double the debt that existed in 2009 by the time Obama serves two terms. In today's terms, Reagan spent $7.23 trillion in 8 years, and we'll spend over $12 trillion.

    The trick is the whole "triple, double" thing. Tripling the debt sounds worse than doubling it, but if your starting debt when you triple is only $1.7 trillion, but it's $10 trillion when you double it, it's easy to see how the actual amount can be more significant than the total percentage increase.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    To be fair, you obviously didn't read my post and just jumped at the chance to throw cons under the bus, as I very clearly referenced a comparison on the basis of inflation in my last sentence.

    Also, to be fair, Redress initially referenced Reagan tripling the debt, and my retort was in response to that relatively ambiguous view of debt increase.

    Why is it, Pete, that all you do is post insulting generalizations and ignorant assumptions about the right, while contributing nothing and failing to respond to sound points made by those you disagree with?
    It is insulting to call out people who forget inflation in their partisan bickering? That you as one of the few managed to sneak in inflation compensation at the end, does not mean that my comments are invalid by any means.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yes, but you forgot to factor in a much higher tax income and the lack of 2 wars, plus a financial melt down not seen since the 1930s and so on. Just saying, it is not that easy to make comparisons without factoring in all the many differences that attributed to each President's "raise" in the debt and even deficit and it is especially difficult considering the partisan "fog of war" both sides like to throw in... like the conservatives holding Reagan up as some sort of God despite his many many flaws (he was a tax raiser!!!!).
    I don't worship any politican. So there's that.

    As for the rest of it...We were just talking the flat increase as it related to the original total. I'm not blaming any specific policy or program or any specific person for the increase. I'm saying it is wholly unacceptable and must be slowed, and then stopped for the sake of our credit rating, our economy, and our future obligations. The spending is excessive regardless of the reasoning behind it.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    It is insulting to call out people who forget inflation in their partisan bickering? That you as one of the few managed to sneak in inflation compensation at the end, does not mean that my comments are invalid by any means.
    It's not only insulting, it's counterproductive and inaccurate. There are plenty of cons (and libs, and socialists and everything else) on this board who support their points with facts. To isolate one group because you dislike them is nothing short of counterproductive.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    If we want to make Reagan comparisons:



    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    it's nonsensical to look at what is clearly stimulus-related spending and then project that it is intended to continue indefinitely
    obama includes much of stimulus spending in his baseline

    Stimulus Proposals in the President's Budget | Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget

    When the economy recovers spending will naturally abate and revenues will naturally rise
    we were told unemployment would be 6.5% by now

    Romer and Bernstein on stimulus - NYTimes.com

    there is no reason to have a panic attack based on irrational projections
    no panic, but at 61.6T under and sinking 5.3 further each year, if something isn't done imminently to fundamentally restructure our budgets, then our big 3 federal programs (as well as state pensions) will simply not be there as we expect them for our next generation

    U.S. funding for future promises lags by trillions - USATODAY.com

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    The spending is excessive regardless of the reasoning behind it.
    That may be, and I agree, but the lack of income due to corporations and the top 1% of the population avoiding paying their fair share is just as big a problem if not bigger. The lack of income has contributed hugely to the deficit and debt along with "excessive spending". Sure the right can complain that many American's dont pay any income taxes and they do have a point, but only up to a very small point. The poor are struggling as it is because of the economy and pushing taxes on them just so the right can "feel better" will doom the economy even more. Where as pushing for more income from the very people that CAN afford it, is the way forward at least in the short term so that the economy and the budget can get fixed. But that is off the table as it stands now.

    Now the problem with excessive spending is that much of it is related to the private sector where competition is non-existent and has pressed prices up for everyone, and yet no one is willing to address this at all in the US congress. Add to that the out right corruption in government procurement, especially military (400 dollar toilet seats stuff) and you have a bloated ineffective government that does not produce enough revenue because they are giving out money and favours by the bushel load (yes that is in reference to Iraq).
    PeteEU

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    He refuses to accept that this is a WAR and there is an ENEMY which must be vanquished.
    vote obama, 2012!

    this is a WAR!

    there is an ENEMY!

    etc

    LOL!

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