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Thread: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Really? I seem to remember a number of individuals in the Republican camp that didn't want to raise the debt limit at all, yet were willing to compromise and do it. I seem to remember many wanting reform of SS, medicare, and medicaid part of it, but they compromised on those. I seem to remember many wanting the Stimulus Money to be released and it be defunded, but they compromised on that. I seem to remember them wanting far more than $4 in savings over 10 years with it mostly back loaded but they were willing to compromise.

    The Republicans refused to compromise on a single position, the same position that the majority of the time the Democrats ALSO refused to compromise on, and that was increasing of taxes.

    Its pure hyper partisan spin and absolute BS to paint the Republicans as 100% unwilling to compromise and yet paint the Democrats as absolute helpless babes that just were willing to give up anything and everything but the mean old republicans just kept refusing them. Both sides drew their lines, dug in their soles, and brought it to this point.
    You do seem to have a handle on hyperpartisan spin -- I'll give you that much.

    For example, it is insanity to suggest that the thing over which your are negotiating is in fact your concession. How would that work in the real world? You go into a car dealership and offer the salesman the wholesale price and he offers you the sticker price. You come up a little on your offer and he comes back with the sticker price again. You say, "WTF? You've got to negotiate!" He says, "I've already conceded that you can have the car for full retail! What do you want from me, blood?!"

    Never mind the fact that it would have been pure insanity not to raise the debt limit. Never mind the fact that it was absurd from the outset to hold the country hostage over something that any sane person knew had to be done. Forget the fact that Congress has raised the debt limit over 100 times in the past without insisting on this lunatic game of chicken.

    Let's look at what actually happened.

    Democrats wanted substantial deficit reduction with a significant portion coming from revenue enhancement, albeit with the majority still coming from spending cuts.

    Republicans said no, we will take less deficit reduction but we will never agree to anything that could remotely be described as a tax increase.

    Democrats said, okay, we'll offer significant deficit reduction, and we'll shift the balance so that the vast majority of it comes from spending cuts.

    Republicans said no, we will not accept anything remotely like a tax increase no matter what. We're crazy. We'll blow this place up!!

    AND ... AAAND we will only agree not to blow up the economy if you give us a balanced budget amendment that would surely blow up the economy anyway if it could miraculously get through the amendment process!

    Democrats said, holy sh*t, they really may be crazy. Okay, we'll offer you somewhat less deficit reduction and NO tax increase or anything that could in any way be interpretted as a tax increase.

    Republicans said ... NO!! We will ONLY accept EVERYTHING we asked for IF you agree to do this whole economy-shaking dance again in six or nine months!

    Unbelievable.

    You are delusional if you think the republicans were negotiating in good faith.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    The more and more I look into all this the more and more I feel dirty but wish for an actual moderate (in US terms) Democrat President and a majority Republican led congress.

    There's no good rhyme or reason you can find with regards to the debt and Presidents over the past 6. The closest thing to consistent is that all three of the last Republicans had the Debt go up under them. However Reagan's deficits lowered, then Bush I's went up, then Bush II the Deficit went up, then down, then back up. Meanwhile on the Democratic side you have one who has had a steady rise in both debt and deficit, one who had a steady decrease in both, and one who has a mild increase then decrease then increase. There's no real honest and good indication you can get strictly by President.

    The congress and debt, that's a different story. Save for the 4 years at the start of my sample (77-80), whenever we have a Split or Democratic controlled congress the Debt has relatively maintained or risen. Every time we've had Republican Control (outside of 2002) we've either relatively maintained or lowered itself.

    Additionally, ground wars seem to be a better indicator for higher deficits than the control of the Presidency or the House. After Grenada and Lebanon Reagan's deficits lowered a bit, before Panama followed by Desert Storm occured and it went back up. Clinton's defies this a bit, but a large portion of Clinton's actions (Bosnia, Kosovo) were more focused with air support than full on ground war. Under GWB, during the start of afghanistan and iraq we have a raise, while it lowered a bit as the major combat lulled and then rose again with the surge. Similarly, with the surge in Afghanistan we've been seeing an increase as well.

    For all the talk of Presidents, I think its a bit misguided. Wars and Congressional control likely has far more to do with these things than whatever guy happens to be in the big chair. That said, whose in the big chair is largely responsable for the Wars so there is a legitimate thing there. But in regards to debt, I think Congress is a far better indicator and its not shocking in the least to me that the best years this country has seen in the past 3 decades with regards to the debt and deficit came at a time where a Democratic President specifically tried to lean significantly more towards the center and Republicans controlled the congress.

    Federal Debt as % of GDP
    Federal Deficit as $ of GDP

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Zyphlin, I think what you are seeing is that the biggest controlling factor in the deficit is the economy and reaction to the economy. Deficits go up in economic bad times, both due to slower GDP growth and higher spending. In point of fact, that is perfectly OK(and why a balanced budget amendment is a bad idea). We now have to convince our politicians that the reaction to good economic times has to change, and that during good economic times is when you end the deficits and reduce the debt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The more and more I look into all this the more and more I feel dirty but wish for an actual moderate (in US terms) Democrat President and a majority Republican led congress.

    There's no good rhyme or reason you can find with regards to the debt and Presidents over the past 6. The closest thing to consistent is that all three of the last Republicans had the Debt go up under them. However Reagan's deficits lowered, then Bush I's went up, then Bush II the Deficit went up, then down, then back up. Meanwhile on the Democratic side you have one who has had a steady rise in both debt and deficit, one who had a steady decrease in both, and one who has a mild increase then decrease then increase. There's no real honest and good indication you can get strictly by President.

    The congress and debt, that's a different story. Save for the 4 years at the start of my sample (77-80), whenever we have a Split or Democratic controlled congress the Debt has relatively maintained or risen. Every time we've had Republican Control (outside of 2002) we've either relatively maintained or lowered itself.

    Additionally, ground wars seem to be a better indicator for higher deficits than the control of the Presidency or the House. After Grenada and Lebanon Reagan's deficits lowered a bit, before Panama followed by Desert Storm occured and it went back up. Clinton's defies this a bit, but a large portion of Clinton's actions (Bosnia, Kosovo) were more focused with air support than full on ground war. Under GWB, during the start of afghanistan and iraq we have a raise, while it lowered a bit as the major combat lulled and then rose again with the surge. Similarly, with the surge in Afghanistan we've been seeing an increase as well.

    For all the talk of Presidents, I think its a bit misguided. Wars and Congressional control likely has far more to do with these things than whatever guy happens to be in the big chair. That said, whose in the big chair is largely responsable for the Wars so there is a legitimate thing there. But in regards to debt, I think Congress is a far better indicator and its not shocking in the least to me that the best years this country has seen in the past 3 decades with regards to the debt and deficit came at a time where a Democratic President specifically tried to lean significantly more towards the center and Republicans controlled the congress.

    Federal Debt as % of GDP
    Federal Deficit as $ of GDP
    Debt Deal Betrayal for all that want a smaller Central govt.

    4 Ways Debt Deal Betrays Conservatives and Short-Changes America - FoxNews.com

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The more and more I look into all this the more and more I feel dirty but wish for an actual moderate (in US terms) Democrat President and a majority Republican led congress.

    There's no good rhyme or reason you can find with regards to the debt and Presidents over the past 6. The closest thing to consistent is that all three of the last Republicans had the Debt go up under them. However Reagan's deficits lowered, then Bush I's went up, then Bush II the Deficit went up, then down, then back up. Meanwhile on the Democratic side you have one who has had a steady rise in both debt and deficit, one who had a steady decrease in both, and one who has a mild increase then decrease then increase. There's no real honest and good indication you can get strictly by President.

    The congress and debt, that's a different story. Save for the 4 years at the start of my sample (77-80), whenever we have a Split or Democratic controlled congress the Debt has relatively maintained or risen. Every time we've had Republican Control (outside of 2002) we've either relatively maintained or lowered itself.

    Additionally, ground wars seem to be a better indicator for higher deficits than the control of the Presidency or the House. After Grenada and Lebanon Reagan's deficits lowered a bit, before Panama followed by Desert Storm occured and it went back up. Clinton's defies this a bit, but a large portion of Clinton's actions (Bosnia, Kosovo) were more focused with air support than full on ground war. Under GWB, during the start of afghanistan and iraq we have a raise, while it lowered a bit as the major combat lulled and then rose again with the surge. Similarly, with the surge in Afghanistan we've been seeing an increase as well.

    For all the talk of Presidents, I think its a bit misguided. Wars and Congressional control likely has far more to do with these things than whatever guy happens to be in the big chair. That said, whose in the big chair is largely responsable for the Wars so there is a legitimate thing there. But in regards to debt, I think Congress is a far better indicator and its not shocking in the least to me that the best years this country has seen in the past 3 decades with regards to the debt and deficit came at a time where a Democratic President specifically tried to lean significantly more towards the center and Republicans controlled the congress.

    Federal Debt as % of GDP
    Federal Deficit as $ of GDP
    All of which is a very long way around to searching for some conceivable way you might claim -- in your inimitable non-hyperpartisan fashion -- that republicans are fiscally responsibility when they aren't.
    Last edited by AdamT; 08-02-11 at 05:21 PM.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Debt Deal Betrayal for all that want a smaller Central govt.

    4 Ways Debt Deal Betrays Conservatives and Short-Changes America - FoxNews.com
    Hey look, an op/ed. Wonder why I won't bother giving it any credence.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    All of which is a very long way around to searching for some conceivable way you might claim -- in your inimitable non-hyperpartisan fashion -- that republicans are fiscally responsibility when they aren't.
    Since when is fiscal responsibility an issue with you? Which is the better alternative today, Democrats or Republicans?

    Democrats controlled the Congress the first two years of the Obama Administration and now we have these results

    Obama record, 15.1 million officially unemployed TODAY 2 1/2 years later, 16.2% total unemployment or underemployment over 24 million TODAY, 4 trillion added to the debt as of the end of fiscal year 2011, and a rising misery index(7.83 to 12.67).
    Last edited by Conservative; 08-02-11 at 05:30 PM.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Since when is fiscal responsibility an issue with you? Which is the better alternative today, Democrats or Republicans?
    Historically, democrats. All evidence points to that being the case now.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Since when is fiscal responsibility an issue with you? Which is the better alternative today, Democrats or Republicans?

    Democrats controlled the Congress the first two years of the Obama Administration and now we have these results

    Obama record, 15.1 million officially unemployed TODAY 2 1/2 years later, 16.2% total unemployment or underemployment over 24 million TODAY, 4 trillion added to the debt as of the end of fiscal year 2011, and a rising misery index(7.83 to 12.67).
    I am always concerned with fiscal responsibility. I was concerned when Bush cut taxes and didn't pay for them. I was concerned when started two wars and didn't pay for them. I was concerned when the overly-loose money supply and said tax cuts contributed to a huge asset bubble. But it is not fiscally responsible to cut spending when the economy is in recession, or teetering on the edge of one.

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    Re: Debt ceiling cost to taxpayers: $1.7 billion

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I am always concerned with fiscal responsibility. I was concerned when Bush cut taxes and didn't pay for them. I was concerned when started two wars and didn't pay for them. I was concerned when the overly-loose money supply and said tax cuts contributed to a huge asset bubble. But it is not fiscally responsible to cut spending when the economy is in recession, or teetering on the edge of one.
    Do you think your paycheck is an expense to the govt? You keep saying that tax cuts have to be paid for. Where did you learn that? Tax cuts are a benefit to the taxpayer by allowing them to keep more of what they earn. They aren't a line item expense thus don't have to be paid for as only expenses have to be paid for.

    Obama has spent record amounts over the past two plus years and is about to make it 3 years in a row. This nation is broke and has to cut spending. Cutting spending doesn't hurt the private sector and that is where the economy has to grow and create jobs.

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