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Thread: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

  1. #61
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    The only place we are going to get revenue from is slash entitlement programs or raise taxes, and know which side everybody is on. When is the last time taxes went up? When is the last time a US president didn't run of the deficit?

    It looks to me like the left have been doing a lot more negotiations and agreeing to cut entitlement programs, even this debt ceiling agreement has a lot of cuts. But like Spiker said there is a lot of wasteful spending going on, and none of them have offered a committee to research wasteful, unnecessary spending and cut that out. It's always presented as entitlements vs tax rates.
    I totally agree there has to be BOTH spending cuts AND tax increases to pay down the debt. Been saying it for months. But there has to be REAL cuts. What we have seen is a slight reduction in deficit spending...which means less new debt, but still...new debt. That solves NOTHING. Real cuts...deeeeep cuts. Across the board.

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Not true



    Photobucket, can't see it at work. However, I'm going off the numbers put out by the official Government Printing Office's site.



    You'll note for that particular graph that the DOD's budget INCLUDES the spending for "Overseas Contingency Operations" such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

    Entitlements (SS, Medicare/caid, and other mandatory spending not counting debt payments) make up over 55% of that. DOD and Veterans Affairs make up about 20%.

    Please, rather than just posting pictures and acting like that is debating or proves something, use your words and explain to me exactly what is incorrect about my numbers regarding 2010 spending. Slapping some graphics up and acting like that's an answer isn't a response. Especially when, I"m guessing based on another posters post, you tried to show just DISCRETIONARY spending where as my post was clearly speaking about spending, as a whole. Mandatory spending is just as much money being spent by the government as discretionary. $1 of mandatory spending is = to $1 of discretionary. Looking at the matter from only one side of it is a bit ridiculous and highlights the exact type of denail I am speaking about.

    While I can't see your images at this time, and can only go off what others have said, I truly hope you weren't being so purposefully obtuse as to think that attempting to counter my point which clearly was speaking of ALL spending by posting up a picture of discretionary spending with no additional comments or statements at all somehow was going to actually counter my statements.

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    I think what you have explained here is one thing missing in these income tax comparisons. Does England, France and Germany have a second tier of taxes like our state taxes to pay? Our states provide things to us that federal government does not. A centralized national government would necessarily have to have a higher income tax rate to provide everything. More apples and oranges. Our government has much more money that it will ever need. We are taxed enough.

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    That's absurd. The vast majority of the reasons any corporation might pay no U.S. federal corporate income tax are:

    1. They had losses which meet or exceed their earnings.
    2. They were engaged in foreign business and paid as much or more than the federal rate, in the country they are doing business, as per U.S. treaty agreements.

    It makes no sense to say you want to spend a lot of time finding way to tax people who lost money, or who already paid in the nation they are doing business.
    I posted links, and I know a lot about taxation... and NOL carry overs are fair. The IRS doesn't even have to award them if a company back files prior year taxes, but that isn't the real problem with the tax code, and I have been writing posts on this for hours in another thread. There are dozens of tax credits companies can qualify for for ordinary expenses, and expenses they would have incurred anyway. Yes, tax credits, not tax deductions... and it's easy to incur massive expenses by managing a shell company and taking full benefit of those tax credits and getting million dollar refunds. The IRS knows is, and is currently working on issuing a new tax form that would require better tracking of credit transfers through a company.

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    That's absurd. The vast majority of the reasons any corporation might pay no U.S. federal corporate income tax are:

    1. They had losses which meet or exceed their earnings.
    2. They were engaged in foreign business and paid as much or more than the federal rate, in the country they are doing business, as per U.S. treaty agreements.

    It makes no sense to say you want to spend a lot of time finding way to tax people who lost money, or who already paid in the nation they are doing business.
    No To Oligarchy | The Nation
    But it's not just wealthy individuals who grotesquely manipulate the system for their benefit. It's the multinational corporations they own and control. In 2009, Exxon Mobil, the most profitable corporation in history made $19 billion in profits and not only paid no federal income tax—they actually received a $156 million refund from the government. In 2005, one out of every four large corporations in the United States paid no federal income taxes while earning $1.1 trillion in revenue.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Sangha,

    Why did you post a graph that exlcludes entitelements spending, when Zyph was specifically contrasting that to defense spending? Are you being intentionally dishonest?

    Wiki is more honest, hopefully people would go wiki it for themselves.

    And amusingly your graph of military spending looks wonderful compared to the *other* problems we have with our budget!

    United States federal budget - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    SS provides more in revenue than it disburses. It is a net profit center, not an expense. It does not increase our debt; it decreases it

    And your budget #'s don't include off-budget spending, like the Iraq War under bush*
    Last edited by sangha; 08-01-11 at 02:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    Nobody wants the government to care for their every need... take a ****ing poll. It's just an empty slogan, and he probably think it's clever sounding.
    It's a straw man, but he has denied this
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    And when were all of those prgrams enacted and why? Not to become socialist but to provide a safety net for those in need and far after this country was founded. Those programs evolved to be much larger than they should and have now become a safety blanket. A system founded on the principle of less government by definition couldn't have intended to be socialist.
    Actually, they were passed in order to preven the nation from going socialist
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #69
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    FCNL

    Not an honest resource.

    REALITY
    In all reality, you can't include SS which pays for itself (and other programs). It's more of a revenue stream than an actual cost.
    Last edited by Tettsuo; 08-01-11 at 02:02 PM. Reason: Sangha posted the info first... making my post redundant.
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    But you CANT compare tax rates. Its not even logical. We dont have the same expenditures, the same costs, and certainly not the same ideals. What does that tax rate look like when you add in State taxes? local? property?
    But we CAN compare tax rates and spending, and we just did... Many people have done it in the past. In fact CPwill is in a thread comparing territorial taxes to non territorial, income taxes and arguing those would be better for America. I have seen other people argue VAT taxes over the American system of sales taxes or capital gains tax. I have also seen some people try to compare a hypothetical flat or fair tax to other countries tax codes, and make an argument. It's all fair game.

    Some people argue that American tax rates are too high, and that is why we are loss jobs... however, our tax rates really aren't that high compared to the rest of the world. Canadian posters don't complain about job loses to China like the American posters do, so it has to be something else. On top of that, you have people continuing to argue American taxes are too high and need to be cut more in this very thread. I'd say making these comparisons is VERY relevant in the face of some commonplace arguments we hear about taxation right now...

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