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Thread: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    As for your point, where exactly does it state that the US was never intended to be socialist? That is surprising to me since many of your programs (SS, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, etc.) are, no?
    All of which are UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Unfortunately, since 1860 we have not had a Constitutional government here in the United States. We've had a rogue government in Washington DC since the Lincoln administration.

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    What's the point of this thread? To make the case for the US to become something it isn't? Here we are the lone super power within a 300 year existence, and there is no end to outside suggestions that we change our fundamental principles. Do I have to actually state the obvious about how stupid such a notion is? Could some of these other countries be living in peace today if a certain country were not sitting across the ocean with the capability to maintain liberty? And now we should change the premise of liberty, and burden our citizens with the the shackles of higher taxes?

    The point is that a 3% increase in tax rates doesn't turn us into socialists.
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    And the socialist ignore the fact that Americans get hit by far more sources of taxes than Europe. We have federal income tax and FICA which are two biggies. We have other forms of income tax such as capital gains. But then we have federal taxes on telephone calls, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, and so forth and so on.

    Then we hav3e state taxes. They tax most of the same things that the feds tax and then some, such as a sales tax.

    Then we have county taxes. That's the property tax, another sales tax, automobile taxes, and whatever else they feel like taxing.
    then we have city taxes. Certainly a sales tax, another property tax, seat tax in theaters, hotel tax, and so more.
    Then we had special improvement districts. Where I lived, that meant another property tax for some but not others to go to the hospital. And, a special improvement district for street lights assessed to each property owners.

    And so it goes. Many of the socialists arguing the U.S. has low taxes are lying and are in the favored groups who pay low taxes. To me, it's shocking that almost half of the country pays zero in Income Tax. Those existing totally on the dole have no taxes because they have no earned income.

    And don't overlook the flat-out lying part. In the U.S. the politicians have found lots, maybe over a hundred, euphemisms for lying but it's still lying. My favorite is the current, "I didn't explain this well enough," when what is meant, "I lied and got caught."
    Last edited by Patrickt; 08-01-11 at 10:54 AM.

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Europe isn't socialist in the economic sense. They simply have more entitlement programs. One issue is whether or not Americans trust the government to spend their money. Currently the wealthy and middle class are being taxed somewhere in the 30th percentile on their income. Now what do Americans get for their contribution in taxes? Healthcare? Comes out of my paycheck until I turn 65. Retirement? I'm being told Social Security won't be around when I'm eligible because we have no money. Foreign policy? We have military bases all over the world and are currently engaged in two (maybe three) wars I don't agree with. Foreign aid? We give aid to support military dictators and fund the IMF, who in turn tries to bailout Greece so Greeks don't have to retire at the same age as Americans. We spend much more as a % of GDP than any other country on healthcare and yet cover a smaller % of people. And despite all this, the US currently has trillions of dollars in debt. I want government to show me they can invest my money better than I can. Otherwise, why would I want to give the government more?

    PS: I understand taxes will have to be higher to decrease the debt. This was a long-term assessment.
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Personal income taxes in the US are typically lower by average in America. However, the corporate tax rate is extremely high compared to other countries.
    On paper yes as in "Here is the corporate tax rate number".. then yes. But in reality the tax burden is one of the lowest in the world due to loopholes, subsidies and so on.
    PeteEU

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrickt View Post
    And the socialist ignore the fact that Americans get hit by far more sources of taxes than Europe. We have federal income tax and FICA which are two biggies. We have other forms of income tax such as capital gains. But then we have federal taxes on telephone calls, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, and so forth and so on.

    Then we hav3e state taxes. They tax most of the same things that the feds tax and then some, such as a sales tax.

    Then we have county taxes. That's the property tax, another sales tax, automobile taxes, and whatever else they feel like taxing.
    then we have city taxes. Certainly a sales tax, another property tax, seat tax in theaters, hotel tax, and so more.
    Then we had special improvement districts. Where I lived, that meant another property tax for some but not others to go to the hospital. And, a special improvement district for street lights assessed to each property owners.

    And so it goes. Many of the socialists arguing the U.S. has low taxes are lying and are in the favored groups who pay low taxes. To me, it's shocking that almost half of the country pays zero in Income Tax. Those existing totally on the dole have no taxes because they have no earned income.

    And don't overlook the flat-out lying part. In the U.S. the politicians have found lots, maybe over a hundred, euphemisms for lying but it's still lying. My favorite is the current, "I didn't explain this well enough," when what is meant, "I lied and got caught."
    I think you need to take another look at the first graph in the OP. It includes ALL taxes

    Once again, the rightwing must obsess over income taxes to the exclusion of all other taxes in order to justify the massive redistribution of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrickt View Post
    And the socialist ignore the fact that Americans get hit by far more sources of taxes than Europe. We have federal income tax and FICA which are two biggies. We have other forms of income tax such as capital gains. But then we have federal taxes on telephone calls, gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, and so forth and so on.
    ..... and Europeans have gas taxes, council taxes, property taxes, car taxes, road taxes, trash collection fees err taxes, energy taxes, green taxes, VAT, oh.. and capital gains tax as well plus many more.... There aint much difference, other than the rates of the taxes we are talking about and the amount of deductions you can get in the US.

    And so it goes. Many of the socialists arguing the U.S. has low taxes are lying and are in the favored groups who pay low taxes. To me, it's shocking that almost half of the country pays zero in Income Tax. Those existing totally on the dole have no taxes because they have no earned income.
    What is more shocking is that people like you actually believe that drivel and use it as a political ploy to LOWER taxes. Hey I understand your swiss cheese holed tax system needs a major overhaul so the burden gets to be more fair on all fronts, but dont blame the lowest income American's for the excess spending of the middle class and up over the last 20+ years.
    PeteEU

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    ..... and Europeans have gas taxes, council taxes, property taxes, car taxes, road taxes, trash collection fees err taxes, energy taxes, green taxes, VAT, oh.. and capital gains tax as well plus many more.... There aint much difference, other than the rates of the taxes we are talking about and the amount of deductions you can get in the US.



    What is more shocking is that people like you actually believe that drivel and use it as a political ploy to LOWER taxes. Hey I understand your swiss cheese holed tax system needs a major overhaul so the burden gets to be more fair on all fronts, but dont blame the lowest income American's for the excess spending of the middle class and up over the last 20+ years.
    Two points

    1) The chart in the OP compares ALL taxes. How those taxes are apportioned to various forms of economic activity is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not the US is a high tax nation

    2) The rightwingers love to whine about income taxes, to the exclusion of all other taxes, because it draws attention away from the big picture.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    On paper yes as in "Here is the corporate tax rate number".. then yes. But in reality the tax burden is one of the lowest in the world due to loopholes, subsidies and so on.
    Of course. The statutory tax rate is meaningless. The important number is the EFFECTIVE tax rate: what corporations actually pay after all the exclusions and deductions:


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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    I'm not Chilean, French, Swedish, Germanic, English - I'm none of these. I've never been to their countries, lived there - even engaged in conversation from someone who is from any of these places.

    So why should their approach to keeping a country affect my views on how our country should function?

    These types of discussions reveal very interesting facts - but they don't equate to my life, my expenses, our society and how we live.
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    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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