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Thread: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

  1. #141
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The argument that corps don't pay the top marginal rate for corporate taxes. Don't you even remember what we were discussing?
    The OP was about the overall tax rate. It devolved into the typical evil corporations bull****. And again...anytime y'all want to have any credibility you go after Obama for his support of and from GE. Throw his ass on the grill baby. Damned evil corporatist.

    The OP is flawed from the get go. We dont pay for the same things. We dont have the same social programs. Our priorities are radically different. Our philosophy is radically different. The primary separation is that many of us think spending and taxation is too high and y'all think we should spend MORE and others should pay more in taxes. Heavy emphasis on that 'others' part.

  2. #142
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    For someone saying "try reading" you should really look up the addage about glass houses.

    I didn't say anyone suggested we raise taxes 70%. I said we'd need to increase tax revenue by nearly 70% to cover our current spending deficit to a point where we'd come out neutral.
    And that is a straw man because no one is saying that we should do that. You've refuted no one and nothing.

    Most here, including myself, are saying we need a combo of spending cuts and tax increases. However, just because we have to cut spending, that doesn't mean it has to come from SS.



    Yes, many things should maybe be on the table. But all of them are secondary to reforming entitlements and cutting military spending.
    Reforming entitlements /= cutting SS. For one thing, we can reform health care into a UHC single payer system and save hundreds of billions over a decade and make medicare and medicaid solvent. We can "reform" SS by lifting the FICA tax, which would eliminate any chance of SS developing a long-term deficit. We can have a jobs program which will raise tax revenues and SS revenues.

    You are ignoring these alterrnatives so you can insist that we must cut SS benefits.


    No, they're not. They ran a deficit this year and are set up in such a way that a deficit is likely to be ran for years to come. And, regardless of which, all other entitlements still make up the largest percentage of federal spending and still would require reform even if you ignored social security.
    They ran a deficit this year because so many people are unemployed. The solution is a jobs program, not cutting benefits.

    And medicare and medicaid, the two next largest programs can be reformed with a UHC single payer system and save hundreds of billions over a decade and make both programs solvent

    A concept that works perhaps when you have a relatively small and managable debt so running an occasional deficit isn't a big deal. We've got a MASSIVE debt that is ever increasing with no hope in sight anytime soon of running a true and honest surplus. Small occasional deficits aren't a bad thing when you're not TRILLIONS in debt.
    If we grow the economy, the debt shrinks in relation and becomes manageable.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #143
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I think entitlements need to be reformed, badly. I think we need to significantly reduce military spending as well. I think those two things, above all else, need to be first addressed and planned for. Trying to deal with the other 25% while ignoring the larger 75% is ridiculous.

    After an honest effort is being made for those, I'd be open for most other things. Possibly increasing taxes? Sure. I would get behind that if it at least raises it a bit on everyone, even if its raised more on the rich than others, but I would not support that burden being placed only on a single group of people. Ultimately, if I had my druthers, I would want to see a 1 or 2% sales tax placed on everything that isn't food or medication, in which that money would go DIRECTLY to an additional debt payment. This would allow us to actually begin to pay down the principle of our debt rather than continuing to just pay the interest, which would intern lower the interest payments in the long term and reduce spending.

    Along with that I'd want us looking into a number of other things. Removal of waste and redundancy in the government. Reform of the tax code to simplify it, thus reducing the cost of the entire tax structure. The removal or reduction of many subsidies, be it to oil, corn, art, or science. Foreign aid expenditures, etc. And I could go on.

    But I would not support either of those things...the reduction of discretionary type spending or raising taxes...until and honest effort has begun under both of those two larger sections of spending. Increasing taxes while letting the rest stay bloated is nothing but a recipe for continuing to be bloated and I don't think it would be healthy or very viable to raise the near 70% additional revenue we'd need to sustain this bloated government we have. If we raise taxes first all we're doing is giving the crack addicts on both sides the cash they need to get more of what they crave. Then somehow, stupidly, are expecting them to give up their crack. That doens't work. Additionally, I'm not in favor of pointless rinky dinky cuts like foreign aide that are nothing but a drop in a bucket and are simply a murmers show to hide the bigger issues.

    I'm for a whole host of ways to deal with our financial crisis. But I'm not for kicking the can down the road by looking at minor things while ignoring the big glaring issues that are there.
    If I am not mistaken

    Social Security is not the issue. It is funded through a specific tax that currently is either in surplus or just slightly in the red. Which given the surplus from previous years means it is not the issue regarding todays deficits
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  4. #144
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, it is Sangha whose focusing primarily on Social Security. If you'll actually go back and check my original post you'll notice my comment was about Entitlements as a whole, not just social security. Even when you take out Social Security, entitlements account for more spending than defense by more than 10% and still make up 1/3rd of our spending.

    Now, I think its ridiculous to ignore 10 to 30 year trends of lower birth rates, lower death rates, increased life expectency combined with nearly doubling the number of people drawing from Social Security and expect that its not going to run into funding issues pretty quickly as was evident even THIS year when we ran a deficit which is why I think SS needs to be looked at...along with all other entitlements...to be reformed.

    And I agree, the military is a major issue as well.

    But I disagree with you regarding tax rates. As I stated, and you can look at the federal budget and do the numbers yourself or I can check another one of my posts and show you it if need be, we'd need to raise revenues by 67% over what we currently pull in to account for our current spending levels. Even nixing all of the military we'd need to raise revenues by 35% and I think you can agree that bringing Defense Spending from over 20% to 0% is unrealistic. Tax Rates, while perhaps a problem, are no where near the size of an issue as Entitlements and Defense spending.

    If you want to make an argument with them being #3, sure...I could possibly expect that. But its #3 by a good ways.
    No, it is you who is focuing on entitlements. It is you who is saying we MUST cut entitlements.

    There is no need. We can

    1) Grow the economy
    2) Remove the FICA cap
    3) Create a single payer UUHC health care system, and save 33% on our HC expenditures
    4) Raise taxes and eliminate corporate welfare

    That combo would go a long way towards solving our fiscal problem
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #145
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The OP was about the overall tax rate. It devolved into the typical evil corporations bull****. And again...anytime y'all want to have any credibility you go after Obama for his support of and from GE. Throw his ass on the grill baby. Damned evil corporatist.

    The OP is flawed from the get go. We dont pay for the same things. We dont have the same social programs. Our priorities are radically different. Our philosophy is radically different. The primary separation is that many of us think spending and taxation is too high and y'all think we should spend MORE and others should pay more in taxes. Heavy emphasis on that 'others' part.
    The only people saying that this has anything to do with "evil" corps, are the rightwingers who over-react to any suggestion that we increase corporate taxes. Anf it's you who has been constantly referring to Obama in an pitiful attempt to prove the hypocrisy of the leftists who don't even support Obama
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #146
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Hmm, I don't know how many ways I can say this or if it will ever sink in, but no one is suggesting that we address the situation solely through increased tax revenue. The situation can only be handled in a credible manner by cutting spending AND raising taxes.

    If you pull out extraordinary spending like TARP and the stimulus package, it's clear that long-term expenditures like war spending and the Bush tax cuts are what's driving long-term deficits.
    And neither do I. I have told him at least three times that no one is suggesting tax increases alone, but he keeps repeating that 67% number, as if someone was actually suggesting that as a solution.

    He also doesn't seem to realize that there is an alternative to cutting the benefits of SS, Medicare and Medicaid. We can

    1) A jobs program would put people to work, which increases tax revenues
    2) Grow the economy to make the debt shrink relative to GDP
    3) Create a single payer UHC health care system and cut our expenditures by as much as 33%
    4) Remove the FICA cap
    5) Raise corporate taxes
    6) Eliminate corporate welfare
    7) Make the income tax more progressive by creating new brackets above $1m/yr and tax it at a higher rate
    8) Cut the military budget
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #147
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    They aren't "income tax comparison". They're a comparison of ALL taxes

    And what makes you think the regional govts of europe provide no services, or less than US states. In general, they provide more
    Show me that they do. Show me a reasonable comparison of all taxes we pay against all taxes that France pays for example.

  8. #148
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by jambalaya View Post
    Show me that they do. Show me a reasonable comparison of all taxes we pay against all taxes that France pays for example.
    Here's a link

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...ver-taxes.html
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #149
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    FY2009, the US government took in >$2.1T in tax revenue.
    That's PLENTY of money, for any reasonable person.
    The issue, then, is spending.

  10. #150
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    Re: U.S.: In state of denial over taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by PzKfW IVe View Post
    FY2009, the US government took in >$2.1T in tax revenue.
    That's PLENTY of money, for any reasonable person.
    The issue, then, is spending.
    Obviously it isn't enough to pay for the government that most Americans want. The issue is both spending and taxes.

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