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House rejects Senate Democratic debt bill(edited)

Re: Default is looming

Like I said, "What do you want, Mr. President?"

:lol: What the President Wants is make-believe cuts, real tax increases, and another commission to study the entitlements. yeah. that will save the AAA rating :roll:



look, AAA is lost. maybe not today, maybe not Aug 3; but unless we make drastic changes that the current divided government is incapable of, soon.
 
Re: Default is looming

I'm sure you really do think the man is shallow, but if you've bothered to really listen to what he's said, he'd be doing pretty much what all parts of society has asked him to do.

Highlighted that because this is a rather critical point. The President has said plenty of things. He apparently has an entire plan written in his head that nobody is allowed to see. He hasn't done anything.

Yes, that approach is shallow. Republicans have put out what they want, and what they are willing to accept. They have put it on paper, voted on it, committed to it, and are unable now to back away from it. Meanwhile, the President has equivocated, scolded, and puffed himself up on television while apparently doing nothing useful or productive. The man Really Does Think that giving a speech is the same thing as governing.
 
Re: Default is looming

Since when did Polls become the soul methods of determining democracy in a debate? This is stupid, i take polls truth with a grain of salt... no matter what or where they sway. You can't trust the mob rule in this situation any way/ There is a lot of misinformation, bias, and politics going on in the media right now getting many people riled up.

That's not how our system works, The People elected the what congress is right now... if their opinions have changed on their candidates then they will be voted out in the next elections.
 
Re: Default is looming

Yeah, then we can impeach his ass and be done with it.

even then I don't know if they would go the full Impeachment Route. The Demands from the Tea Party types that it happen would make sure it became an issue, but if the leadership assented it would become an issue of them-attacking-Obama-for-trying-to-save-the-economy story. Letting the Tea Party yell about it while having the Leadership make sure it doesn't actually happen would be a great way to get our cake and eat it too in 2012, however, and it would feed the image that Obama is Big Intrusive Powerful Big Spending Government Who Refuses To Stop.
 
Re: Default is looming

Since when did Polls become the soul methods of determining democracy in a debate?

a little under 2/3rds of Americans supported Cut Cap and Balance, and more than two-thirds support a Balanced Budget Amendment.

when he alters his rhetoric to call for a BBA in light of that, then I'll believe that he actually thinks polls matter.
 
Re: Default is looming

gosh can you imagine? in the United States... some kind of institutional limit to the ruling parties' power?!?


that concept would have been totally foreign to the Founding Fathers, no doubt...

I think its really funny when you hear democratic congressmen go on and on about how the Tea Party is taking hostage over the country and they are "Dictators" over the system.... so their logically conclusion- is hoping the president uses his executive order to "save the country" bypassing the entire system and debate...

Using the exact same logic but even worse because the president could actually try to force it on the people.
 
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Re: Default is looming

Yeah, then we can impeach his ass and be done with it.
I say bring it on, I can't think a better way to get reelected. :mrgreen:

gosh can you imagine? in the United States... some kind of institutional limit to the ruling parties' power?!?


that concept would have been totally foreign to the Founding Fathers, no doubt...
In it's history, what has the debt limit accomplished? ZERO, NADA, NICHTS
 
Re: Default is looming

a little under 2/3rds of Americans supported Cut Cap and Balance, and more than two-thirds support a Balanced Budget Amendment.

when he alters his rhetoric to call for a BBA in light of that, then I'll believe that he actually thinks polls matter.
I told you before and I'll say it again, that is total BS. Since an overwhellming majority don't know what Cut Cap and Balance is, there is no way this could be determined. For goodness sake only about 26% know from which country we got our independence from.

How in hell can you put a Balanced Budget in legislation that requires 2/3 vote in both houses and a 3/4 vote from all the states?

This is stupidity on steroids.
 
Re: Default is looming

In it's history, what has the debt limit accomplished? ZERO, NADA, NICHTS

yes. precisely. :) that you don't get that is the point.
 
Re: Default is looming

I told you before and I'll say it again, that is total BS. Since an overwhellming majority don't know what Cut Cap and Balance is, there is no way this could be determined.

:lol: but support for the President's plan, of which nobody is certain what is in it, can be assured?

please :roll:

How in hell can you put a Balanced Budget in legislation that requires 2/3 vote in both houses and a 3/4 vote from all the states?

you require it to pass the Legislature. It is then up to the States - but the reason Democrats won't do it is because they know the States would pass it, and then their goose is cooked.
 
Re: Default is looming

:lol: What the President Wants is make-believe cuts, real tax increases, and another commission to study the entitlements.

Have you read either debt limit bill coming from either side? Have you even read the Cut, Cap and Balance bill? It doesn't dare touch Social Security, Medicare or VA benefits and services; it "excluse" them from reforms or spending caps.

‘‘(b) EXEMPT FROM DIRECT SPENDING LIMITS.—
4 Direct spending for the following functions is exempt from
5 the limits specified in subsection (c):
6 ‘‘(1) Social Security, function 650.
7 ‘‘(2) Medicare, function 570.
8 ‘‘(3) Veterans Benefits and Services, function
9 700.
10 ‘‘(4) Net Interest, function 900.

And according to this review at GOP.gov contrary to the language in Sen. Reid's bill which gives the appears of placing spending limits on "non-war-related activities" or "defense spending", Speaker Boeher's bill would empose the exact same spending limit. Neither bill is really all that dissimilar from the other. The more I read of them, the more I realize neither were really serious offers to solve this debt limit stallmate, but alteast Reid's plan would have extended having to worry about the matter for atleast the next 18 months.

look, AAA is lost. maybe not today, maybe not Aug 3; but unless we make drastic changes that the current divided government is incapable of, soon.

You won't get the reforms you belief are necessary in entitlements within the next four days. Not gonna happen. Either we take the best parts of both bills and combine them into one, or both parties will force the President to choose between facing a Constitutional inquiry which the nation will only see as a total capitulation by Congress' failure to do their duty and uphold their consititutional oath to protect the "full faith and credit of the United States". They will not blame the President for this failure; they will blame Congress.
 
Re: Default is looming

I'm sure you really do think the man is shallow, but if you've bothered to really listen to what he's said, he'd be doing pretty much what all parts of society has asked him to do.

What he said was, having to raise the debt ceiling was a failure in leadership.
 
Re: Default is looming

What he said was, having to raise the debt ceiling was a failure in leadership.

If you really believe that, then how do you explain neither side of Congress being able to put forward a piece of legislation that:

1) barely made it through the House even on the second try; and,

2) both sides knew their bill would not get passed by the opposing side of Congress.

Both sides effectively tossed out the other side's bill. Yet, when it comes down to the wire both sides had no choice but to come back to "the negotiating community organizer many thought incapable of leading" all now very willing to give him damned near everything he wants in order to save their political careers, especially Boehner. McConnell and Cantor. The true irony here is if they had listened to him and the American people, this problem would have been resolved weeks, if not months ago.
 
Re: Default is looming

Then why hasn't anyone in Congress ever put forth a bill to eliminate it?

because the point of the debt limit is to restrict action, not encourage it.
 
Re: Default is looming

Have you read either debt limit bill coming from either side? Have you even read the Cut, Cap and Balance bill? It doesn't dare touch Social Security, Medicare or VA benefits and services; it "excluse" them from reforms or spending caps.

Republicans tried to reform Social Security in 2005 and Medicare and Medicaid in 2011. Please link to the Democrats supportive of those efforts, thanks :).

You won't get the reforms you belief are necessary in entitlements within the next four days. Not gonna happen.

barring a sudden agreement by Democrats to **** over their base and not demand major tax hikes with entitlement reform, probably not.

which is why I say that AAA is very likely doomed anywho. We will see if we can hold it long enough to get to spring of 2013; when the people can decide whose approach to go with, and that Party can do so.

Either we take the best parts of both bills and combine them into one, or both parties will force the President to choose between facing a Constitutional inquiry which the nation will only see as a total capitulation by Congress' failure to do their duty and uphold their consititutional oath to protect the "full faith and credit of the United States". They will not blame the President for this failure; they will blame Congress.

:shrug: the House has now passed two options, including one in which the Majority Party leadership was willing to face down a revolt in it's own ranks to pass. the Senate has passed nothing. The President has issued no plan, only veto threats. I'm pretty sure I have an inkling of who the country will blame at this point.
 
Re: Default is looming

cpwill you are wrong. The government needs to spend money, no one else is doing it. You want to cut spending not because of economic factors but because it furthers your social agenda of less government, the economy be damned. We are a consumer economy, we don't produce enough, if someone doesn't spend the economy will never recover, it will just keep getting worst.

It's like I've been saying since the economic crisis began - CORPORATE AMERICAN CANNOT CORRECT ITSELF!? Our financial institutions broke the piggy bank. The bank was on it's way toward repairing itself until: a) the House held up a jobs bill that could have put people back to work long ago; b) Stimulus money began to dry up and state's didn't use the money they received to do any meaningful public-private deals that would have created jobs; c) Republican leaders started doing whatever they could to place even more people on social programs whether from federal or state government. After than, things started going downhill. And if you've paid attention to the stock market over the last month but in particular over the last week, you'll know that it fluctuated for a while, but had hovered around 12,400 until the last week to 10-days when it's dropped nearly every day. The Dow closed at 12,143 on Friday. If the debt limit isn't raised by the time the Asia markets open Sunday, I would not be surprised to see it drop below 19,990 by the time the markets close on Monday, if not worse.

I hope everyone in Congress were given copies of that OP article, as well as that latest news articles from both FoxNews and MSNBC clearly indicating the Republican leadership wanting to compromise now with "the right people in the room" and "the only person in the room who can sign a document into law". What they should get from those reads is the for the first time in a long time, the media isn't being partisan. They're both saying the exact same thing.

I also hope the elderly read the OP article, too. Social Security was started as their financial safety net. I can understand why they don't want it to be touched. But they also have to know that with more of them on it because they need to accept the facts about their generation - that it's living longer yet alot of them are unhealthy and it's costing both Social Security and Medicare tons. The other side of these two entitlement equations, however, is that the government hasn't helped matters by putting more people on Social Security who haven't paid into it and applying a prescription drug component to Medicare that wasn't paid for.

This country has alot of dysfunction to recover from - greed among our financial institutions, selfishness by the elderly, political stubborness on both sides of the divide and an over-indulgence of stuff purchased on credit by pretty much all. We've applied too many short-term band-aids and placed the economic burden on one side of the economic scale for far too long. Republicans were right. This country does need a course correction....a change in its partisanship and its national politic. Instead of pointing figures at each other, both sides need to understand how they've "contributed to the chaos" and come to a reasonable compromise to correct the problems we face. Otherwise, we all fall. And alot of people will be pissed. And if you thought the images of Greecians, Egypt, Syria were bad. Wait 'til you turn on your televisions August 4th and see the crowd of protesters outside the Capital. Like the man in the OP article said, "The people know how much the government owes them." They won't stand for not getting paid a dime of the money they either paid to the government or invested in good faith with it.
 
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Re: Default is looming

a little under 2/3rds of Americans supported Cut Cap and Balance, and more than two-thirds support a Balanced Budget Amendment.

when he alters his rhetoric to call for a BBA in light of that, then I'll believe that he actually thinks polls matter.

A clear majority of Americans want the wealthy to pay more in taxes and think that tax hikes should be a part of a debt deal. When Republicans start caring about polls, let me know.
 
Re: Default is looming

A clear majority of Americans want the wealthy to pay more in taxes and think that tax hikes should be a part of a debt deal. When Republicans start caring about polls, let me know.

Nobody outside of Obama is calling for tax hikes. Even he argued against them not long ago. Never let a crises go to waste though.
 
Re: Default is looming

The Reid bill has been defeated in both the House and the Senate. Now, the real negotiations can begin. Just so everyone understands what's happened overall:

Boehner's first bill gets voted down in the House; they don't send it to the Senate. Instead, Boehner goes to work revising his initial piece of legislation.

Boehnor's revised bill (2nd attempt) passes the House, but gets tabled in the Senate meaning the Senate merely refused to bring the bill to the floor for a formal "up or down vote". They just refused to do anything with it other than set it aside.

Meanwhile, the Senate sends the Reid bill to the House for a vote. It gets defeated.

All party leadership meet once again at the White House where one side shows alot more willingness to compromise than they had before. Base on what I've been reading and hearing in news cycles, both sides appear to agree in principle to the following:

- raise the debt limit to atleast $2.5 trillion
- cut spending by atleast $3 trillion over 10 yrs
- cap discretionary spending for 10-yrs
- no tax hikes thru 2012 (Translation: Bush tax cuts will expire and the tax code will be revised)
- establish 12-member deficit commission whose recommendations will take hold unless Congress reforms entitlements and appropriates bills accordingly over the next 10-yrs

Summary: The tabling of Boenher's 2nd bill in the Senate and the defeat of Reid's bill in the House creates conditions for both sides to embrace the framework for a compromise along the lines as outlined above. The debt limit will get raised and Congress will work harder to keep spending under control, and in the near future will work on tax and entitlement reforms.

Nobody outside of Obama is calling for tax hikes. Even he argued against them not long ago. Never let a crises go to waste though.

Clearly, some of you still don't get it. There's no way this country can reduce the deficit without cutting spending AND increasing taxes or at the very least eliminating tax loopholes. It's going to take 10 years just to pay off $2-3 trillion in debt! How much longer do you think it will take to pay off the remaining $11 trillion without raising revenue? And mind you, this is only public and privately held debt (mostly on investors, both foreign and domestic; all those short-term bonds aren't held by China alone. Social Security is tied to long-term bonds, but domestic investors buy alot of short-term bonds which have to be paid). Really think it through, folks. Our debt problem is ALOT larger than most people think!
 
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Re: Default is looming

from 1Perry

Never let a crises go to waste though.

On the GOP side you would have to add the word MANUFACTURED in the middle of that statement. They certainly are milking that cow for all they can get. Obama seems unable to even find the pail.
 
Re: Default is looming

Republicans tried to reform Social Security in 2005 and Medicare and Medicaid in 2011. Please link to the Democrats supportive of those efforts, thanks :).
I wasn't arguing that the Dems had tried to do any with entitlement reforms other than pass ObamaCare. However, what I was trying to get you and others to realize is that neither have Republicans especially in this latest bill called Cut, Cap and Balance. And as I've pointed by posting the specific subparagraph to the bill, CCB excludes Social Security, Medicare and VA benefits and spending from being capped. So, at present neither side really wants to touch entitlements in a meaningful way.

barring a sudden agreement by Democrats to **** over their base and not demand major tax hikes with entitlement reform, probably not.

which is why I say that AAA is very likely doomed anywho. We will see if we can hold it long enough to get to spring of 2013; when the people can decide whose approach to go with, and that Party can do so.

:shrug: the House has now passed two options, including one in which the Majority Party leadership was willing to face down a revolt in it's own ranks to pass. the Senate has passed nothing. The President has issued no plan, only veto threats. I'm pretty sure I have an inkling of who the country will blame at this point.

We both agree that both sides will compromise now. I've outlined what I believe those compromises will be. Let's just see if the country gets better legislation out of the deal.
 
Re: Default is looming

We are not going to default. We are not going to default. We are not going to default. We are not going to default. We are not going to default.

Wishful thinking?? Or do you care to elaborate, preferably with numbers, how the US can go without bankrupting?


Clearly, some of you still don't get it. There's no way this country can reduce the deficit without cutting spending AND increasing taxes or at the very least eliminating tax loopholes. It's going to take 10 years just to pay off $2-3 trillion in debt! How much longer do you think it will take to pay off the remaining $11 trillion without raising revenue? And mind you, this is only public and privately held debt (mostly on investors, both foreign and domestic; all those short-term bonds aren't held by China alone. Social Security is tied to long-term bonds, but domestic investors buy alot of short-term bonds which have to be paid). Really think it through, folks. Our debt problem is ALOT larger than most people think!

Ya, it's a friggin joke... 10 years down the line there's going to be something like 10-20trillion dollars added to that debt because of interest (I'm just guessing at actual numbers, but the total derivative debt, according to new york times a couple months ago was around 600 trillion dollars)...

In other words, it's now at the point where we can put 100% of GDP towards the debt + a 100% tax rate (which would not work, I know) and STILL run out of money and still only be paying on interest on that debt.

It should be getting more and more apparent that those "doom and gloomers" were correct this whole time, while they were quietly preparing for the difficult times ahead.
 
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