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Thread: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

  1. #141
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    ....thereby indicating that in fact, you have no idea what Medicare D is or how it functions.....
    It is socialistic. The govt runs it. Socialism and capitalism are compatible. Just look at Sweden

    but hey, if letting you call the Ryan Plan "socialism" will get you to vote for it.... a rose by any other name. go right on ahead with your bad self.
    Never said that, but if you can't refute what I actually did say, go right on and have fun with your myths


    you are mistaking "costs" with "expenditures".
    No, I'm referring to costs.

    this is incorrect. particularly when it comes to access and severe condition survival rates, the US system is superior.
    You can cherry pick all you want and find one or two areas where the US does better, but other nations with socialized health care get better outcomes for less money

    this is incorrect. not only do we have Medicaid to take care of those who have difficulty affording medical care, our emergency rooms are required by law to treat any who come in.
    Medicaid doesn't cover everything (rationing) and ER's only have to stabilize a patient (another form of rationing)


    again. whatever you want to call it. but if you think that applying market pressure to a corporatist system in which costs are socialized while benefits are individualized is "socialism".... then you really don't have any idea what you are talking about.
    Again, if you think socialism doesn't allow market forces to work, then you don't know what socialism is



    my position hasn't changed at all. this isn't exactly the first time I've argued precisely this point.
    Sure, it hasn't

    And the NR is ridiculously biased, and I'm still waiting for you to tell us when the US Feds cut spending massively in the last 100 years. I can wait
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  2. #142
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    It is socialistic. The govt runs it. Socialism and capitalism are compatible. Just look at Sweden


    Socialism involves government ownership of the means of production, there are arguments that government control of the means of production (sometimes also called Corporatism) should fall under the broader heading of Socialism as well.

    Medicare Part D, however, isn't "run by" the government in that top-down sense - it is run by the individual consumer. All the government does is supply the money, the consumer makes the choice as to what plan they want from what private company, and the individual covers part of the cost and feels part of the price pressure.

    that is, in fact, why it works so well.

    Never said that, but if you can't refute what I actually did say, go right on and have fun with your myths
    dude. what you are calling "socialism" one paragraph above? is the Ryan Plan for Medicare.

    No, I'm referring to costs.
    no, you are referring to expenditures. as in "sweden spends a lower percent of GDP than the US on healthcare" or "in France they spend an average of $8K per person per year, while we spend $15K". costs include quite a bit else, and much of it is non-fiscal.

    You can cherry pick all you want and find one or two areas where the US does better, but other nations with socialized health care get better outcomes for less money
    maybe it's just me, but I would think that "access to medical care" and "the ability to survive disease" would be pretty major indicators of "outcome".

    Medicaid doesn't cover everything (rationing) and ER's only have to stabilize a patient (another form of rationing)
    that is true. but it still gives the lie to your claim that those who cannot afford healthcare on their own do not receive it in the United States.

    Again, if you think socialism doesn't allow market forces to work, then you don't know what socialism is
    oh this will be fun. please, enlighten me. but I want citation

    Sure, it hasn't

    And the NR is ridiculously biased, and I'm still waiting for you to tell us when the US Feds cut spending massively in the last 100 years. I can wait
    well, i gave you one time when they cut it by about 49% and the result was economic boom.

    post WWII, of course, they cut it by even more than that - even as they were demobilizing the military. Keynesians were unanimous that this would lead to massive unemployment. Instead it topped out at about.... 4%. and we had an economic boom.

  3. #143
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post


    Socialism involves government ownership of the means of production, there are arguments that government control of the means of production (sometimes also called Corporatism) should fall under the broader heading of Socialism as well.

    Medicare Part D, however, isn't "run by" the government in that top-down sense - it is run by the individual consumer. All the government does is supply the money, the consumer makes the choice as to what plan they want from what private company, and the individual covers part of the cost and feels part of the price pressure.
    Socialism doesn't require the govt to run it. All it requires is that the govt control the rules by which it operates. The govt sets the limits by which the market can act. It is socialistic

    that is, in fact, why it works so well.
    It is, in fact, why socialism works so well and the free market does not


    dude. what you are calling "socialism" one paragraph above? is the Ryan Plan for Medicare.
    I said nothing about the Ryan Plan. You just imagine my comments apply to the Ryan plan


    no, you are referring to expenditures. as in "sweden spends a lower percent of GDP than the US on healthcare" or "in France they spend an average of $8K per person per year, while we spend $15K". costs include quite a bit else, and much of it is non-fiscal.
    Oh, Isee what you're getting at. You want to include mythical "costs" that your inane ideology claims exists


    maybe it's just me, but I would think that "access to medical care" and "the ability to survive disease" would be pretty major indicators of "outcome".
    They are factors, but that are not the same thing as "outcomes". Nice try at sophistry, but it needs work

    that is true. but it still gives the lie to your claim that those who cannot afford healthcare on their own do not receive it in the United States.
    Maybe that's why I did not say "afford health care on their own". You had to add the last three words.


    oh this will be fun. please, enlighten me. but I want citation
    Sweden, a socialist nation with capitalistic corporations.

    well, i gave you one time when they cut it by about 49% and the result was economic boom.

    post WWII, of course, they cut it by even more than that - even as they were demobilizing the military. Keynesians were unanimous that this would lead to massive unemployment. Instead it topped out at about.... 4%. and we had an economic boom.
    You're talking about 1945-1949 right?

    We had a much higher tax rate back then. And the rest of the worlds productive capacity had been destroyed. IN adidition, revenues were lower, even with the higher tax rates, and the spending cuts were concentrated on military spending. If you are advocating for a 49% reduction in military spending, then I have no problem with that.

    But that's not what you're proposing, now is it?
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #144
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    okay ... so I guess we go with the senate plan ......... oppps sorry they don't have one ..
    Never mind that all Republican Congressmen will unanimously vote "no" on any proposal that is submitted by Democrats because they won't vote "yes" on anything that even hints at raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations. Of course, Republicans don't mind wasting valuable time on plans that only their own radical Tea Party group will go along with.

    Time to go with the Preisdent's plan .... oppps sorry he doesn't have one either ....
    Oh, the President submitted one, or do the ones that get voted "no" don't count? OK, well then, I guess the ones the Republicans have submitted don't count either, because none of them have been passed.
    So lets see ... what is it we are suppose to go with ?? Times getting kinda short ... and not one single Democratic plan ....
    Well, a lot of the "vocal negotiations" are just as good as those on paper, because until they can come to some agreement, they can submit their worthless plans (like Ryan's) and they will get nowhere. They have to have an idea of what the other side is going to agree on, and so far the Republicans just want to roll over the middle class and protect the wealthy.

    laughs ....
    What is this? A screenplay?

    but of course ... it's the Republican's fault ... But that is the way of the liberal ... no plan of their own .... just tell the American people how bad the other sides plan is .. .
    It isn't about who can produce the most plans - it is about who can produce the plan that will "most" help America and benefit the country without putting the elderly and the middle-class in harm's way - and so far, the worthless pieces of crap the Republicans have put forth have done just that. They want to protect the wealthy and the corporations and the heck with the rest of the country - the Democrats are not going to put up with that nonsense that Bush introduced and more power to them.

    And, they don't have to tell us how bad the Republican plans are - it has been plain to see. Even Republicans told Ryan his plan stunk! Of course, some have not gotten the word yet - or don't understand, or don't care - or, are just plain ignorant.



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
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  5. #145
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    =mertex;1059701847]Never mind that all Republican Congressmen will unanimously vote "no" on any proposal that is submitted by Democrats because they won't vote "yes" on anything that even hints at raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations. Of course, Republicans don't mind wasting valuable time on plans that only their own radical Tea Party group will go along with.
    Well until you submit a plan for them to vote no on … you have nothing, just saying so doesn't make it so. There was “no” plan submitted by the Dem's for a vote....


    Oh, the President submitted one, or do the ones that get voted "no" don't count? OK, well then, I guess the ones the Republicans have submitted don't count either, because none of them have been passed.
    Really ?? I'm sorry .. care to give a link to the presidents plan that was voted no on ??


    Well, a lot of the "vocal negotiations" are just as good as those on paper, because until they can come to some agreement, they can submit their worthless plans (like Ryan's) and they will get nowhere. They have to have an idea of what the other side is going to agree on, and so far the Republicans just want to roll over the middle class and protect the wealthy.
    Oh I see so we are now down to vocal negotiations, so exactly how does the president sign a vocal plan?? Maybe he just vocally declares it a law huh?


    What is this? A screenplay?
    No not a screen play, it's me laughing at you


    It isn't about who can produce the most plans - it is about who can produce the plan that will "most" help America and benefit the country without putting the elderly and the middle-class in harm's way - and so far, the worthless pieces of crap the Republicans have put forth have done just that. They want to protect the wealthy and the corporations and the heck with the rest of the country - the Democrats are not going to put up with that nonsense that Bush introduced and more power to them.
    Sheeez go back to MSNBC and get some more talking points, because you don't have the faintest idea what was in any plans that were “written” and submitted. You say the dems aren't going to put up with any nonsense that Bush introduced ?? Funny I thought he served his two terms and was out of government at the end of 2008. But if you think that the Dems should vote no to nonsense, that's fine … that's the way I feel the Republicans should do too, so we agree … we just disagree on what is nonsense.

    And, they don't have to tell us how bad the Republican plans are - it has been plain to see. Even Republicans told Ryan his plan stunk! Of course, some have not gotten the word yet - or don't understand, or don't care - or, are just plain ignorant.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah we should do like we did with the nonsensical health care plan .. just pass it so we can see whats in it right ? Or better yet lets just vocally pass that bill ... and the President can vocally declare it to be the law of the land .........................That is just as ignorant … and you liked that idea .. what does that say about you?

  6. #146
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Submitting plans that have no chance of passing is political theater and a waste of time. That's why the Republicans do it so often.

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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Well until you submit a plan for them to vote no on … you have nothing, just saying so doesn't make it so. There was “no” plan submitted by the Dem's for a vote....
    The Democrats in the House and Senate know better than to waste their time and effort and our tax-payer money on something the Party of "no" is going to reject. It is no secret the Party of "no" controls the House - nothing gets passed without getting House approval. On the other hand, the stupid Republicans wasted valuable time and effort, not to mention our tax-payer money repealing Health Care - did it go anywhere? No - well, I'm sure you get the picture, (or not).

    Really ?? I'm sorry .. care to give a link to the presidents plan that was voted no on ??
    Yes, really! Geez, doesn't Faux News cover such a thing as this? Guess not. Maybe it is true that Faux News viewers are the least informed. Time to check out some other news sources.

    The budget proposal released by the White House back in February didn’t win a single vote in the Senate on Wednesday— the final tally was 0-97. Senate Republicans pushed for the vote as a counterpoint to the defeat of Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget plan.
    Unanimous rejection | POLITICO 44

    Oh I see so we are now down to vocal negotiations, so exactly how does the president sign a vocal plan?? Maybe he just vocally declares it a law huh?
    Gee, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when both parties come to certain agreements, they write them down. Geez, I think that is what finally came down, or didn't you know? They discussed it and changed some of the items! Duh!

    No not a screen play, it's me laughing at you
    It sounded rather stupid, I guess you knew that, (or not)!



    Sheeez go back to MSNBC and get some more talking points, because you don't have the faintest idea what was in any plans that were “written” and submitted. You say the dems aren't going to put up with any nonsense that Bush introduced ?? Funny I thought he served his two terms and was out of government at the end of 2008. But if you think that the Dems should vote no to nonsense, that's fine … that's the way I feel the Republicans should do too, so we agree … we just disagree on what is nonsense.
    Ha,ha, it is true, the Faux News viewers are the least informed! FYI, the Bush Tax Cuts are still being negotiated - and the Republicans will sell their first-born to keep them, after all, it is their base they are protecting. Someone needs to bone up on what is going on, so they won't sound so uninformed!

    Yeah we should do like we did with the nonsensical health care plan .. just pass it so we can see whats in it right ? Or better yet lets just vocally pass that bill ... and the President can vocally declare it to be the law of the land .........................That is just as ignorant … and you liked that idea .. what does that say about you?
    The Republicans had the opportunity to read it - didn't they? I guess they didn't bother to. And, FYI, it passed - and what it says about me is that I care about the middle-class, the poor - not just the corporations and the rich of which I hope those that support the Republican Party should all be rich - otherwise they are like chickens that root for Colonel Sanders!



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You have not a thing to worried about in terms of your party deciding to attack the President..... unless of course you actually love America and its people and are willing to crash the ship of state upon the rocks just so you can be a rabid GOP partisan and blame the captain.

    You will probably get your wish.
    That is the mentality of the GOP - sink the ship in order to win!

    Hope they learn a lesson someday - most people are realizing the GOP doesn't care about America or its people, just being in control, so they can continue to coddle their base, the wealthy and corporations.



    "I have been thinking that I would make a proposition to my Republican friends... that if they will stop telling lies about the Democrats, we will stop telling the truth about them."
    --Adlai Stevenson, Politician





  9. #149
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    =mertex;1059715158]The Democrats in the House and Senate know better than to waste their time and effort and our tax-payer money on something the Party of "no" is going to reject. It is no secret the Party of "no" controls the House - nothing gets passed without getting House approval. On the other hand, the stupid Republicans wasted valuable time and effort, not to mention our tax-payer money repealing Health Care - did it go anywhere? No - well, I'm sure you get the picture, (or not).
    Sure I get the picture, they did what they were elected to do … the platform that they ran on, and the liberals in the Senate would have none of it .. just like they would have none of the bills that were written and passed concerning raising the ceiling, so the party controlling the Senate is just as much a party of no .. as the party controlling the house.


    Yes, really! Geez, doesn't Faux News cover such a thing as this? Guess not. Maybe it is true that Faux News viewers are the least informed. Time to check out some other news sources.

    The budget proposal released by the White House back in February didn’t win a single vote in the Senate on Wednesday— the final tally was 0-97. Senate Republicans pushed for the vote as a counterpoint to the defeat of Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget plan.
    Unanimous rejection | POLITICO 44
    Good lord mertex … are you really that stupid? This wasn't a budget vote .. the 2011 budget has already been passed … but it's nice to see that his budget was so bad... that even his own party rejected it .

    Gee, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when both parties come to certain agreements, they write them down. Geez, I think that is what finally came down, or didn't you know? They discussed it and changed some of the items! Duh!
    And what it a vocal bill that was passed .. or a written one ?

    It sounded rather stupid, I guess you knew that, (or not)!
    No I didn't realize it was stupid … maybe it was just seen that way by stupid people ?

    Ha,ha, it is true, the Faux News viewers are the least informed! FYI, the Bush Tax Cuts are still being negotiated - and the Republicans will sell their first-born to keep them, after all, it is their base they are protecting. Someone needs to bone up on what is going on, so they won't sound so uninformed!
    They may be .. and they may not be, but the simple fact still remains .. the cuts were passed while Democrats controlled both houses and the White house, when nothing had to be done for them to expired … you do know what expire means don't you ? ......If they had expired ... as they were meant to .. . then they wouldn't need to be having discussions about them now ... would they?


    The Republicans had the opportunity to read it - didn't they? I guess they didn't bother to. And, FYI, it passed - and what it says about me is that I care about the middle-class, the poor - not just the corporations and the rich of which I hope those that support the Republican Party should all be rich - otherwise they are like chickens that root for Colonel Sanders!
    Who knows maybe the republicans read it ... and thats why it passed without their support .... so it must have been the democrats that didn't read it .. because it was Nancy Pelosi that stood up and said .. we must pass it to find out what's in it . ….. Sorry .. in my opinion … that is very ignorant ….. but nice to see you disagree with that.

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