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Thread: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Belgarath View Post
    Easy there, grandmother. Don't want to give yourself a heart attack just kidding but seriously though. 1. I would not argue that there's no different between Democrat and Republican. They both have very nice and very different ideas, they just both are obsessed with their fantasy lands where economics and politics follow ideals and not reality, and they have their head stuck in the sand with regards to reality. 2. The problem with supporting a 3rd political party is that the electoral system guarantees they won't be elected President. The Tea Party is already proving that 3rd parties can have an effect in Congress, but I think without they're being elected in high numbers to the Supreme Court, which I don't see happening, or getting the Presidency, they just don't have the power or the influence to make good police occur. 3. Just because someone endorses the policies of a Democrat or Republican doesn't mean they are automatically shoving the debt onto future generations. Look at the end of the Clinton administration when there was a surplus: good things can happen out of the two party system. It simply takes good leadership and consistent economic policy. Have faith
    You wouldnt argue that there is no difference because you have a connection to one and an ideology that I dont have. I see them both as they are. Both parties are fiscal trainwrecks. I have credited Clinton with being a very good president...primarily because he was skilled at working with both parties. Clinton signed legislation given to him by congress. Congress gets the credit, Clinton gets the glory. No problem there. Wouldst that we return to such a time.

    My heart is just fine. I only wish more people would find theirs. Finding their balls (figuratively or otherwise) would also be a nice first start.

  2. #102
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Okay...But I've expressed that I am concerned with the debt... In other threads, I expressed my support for the comprehensive plan that Boehner walked away from that would have cut about $2.8 trillion over the next decade and cut loopholes and simplified taxes to raise another $1.2 trillion in revenues. There was the potential for true reform there - reform created when government is split and therefore giving each side a say in how these reforms would work.

    Simply writing, "Congress must pass a balanced budget" on a piece of paper isn't reform. It's words on paper.

    If it didn't work in Texas, why would it work in Washington?

    Unless you believe that 100% of the population will suddenly begin voting 100% Republican, why should all reforms only come from one side of the political scale?

    Why would you pass a "plan" that essentially only puts us right back into this mess six months from now instead of one that creates real changes in the way our federal government works?

    I would argue because this is more about political victory than it is about reform.

    Democrats wanted a clean debt ceiling raise (as it has been done by both sides many times regardless of who was in the White House). Republicans said "No."

    Okay, Democrats say, fine we'll attach spending cuts to the measure, but let's have some revenue increases as well so we can close this financial gap. Republicans said "No."

    Okay, Democrats say, fine we'll propose just spending cuts, but let's make sure it goes through 2013 so we don't fall down this hole again in a few months. Republicans say "No."

    Can you see how someone on the other side begins to think this is only scoring political points when our side has caved already on so many things?

    The silliness is that one side claims to be the only ones proposing to do anything about it, when proposals from the other side have been rejected, walked away from, and ignored. And the simple fact of the matter is this: the House HAS to pass something that will make it through the Senate and get signed by the President. They do NOT get to do it 100% their way. The moment they recognize that is the moment this actually gets solved - at least to the point that it prevents the markets from continuing to fall (nearly 200 points yesterday, nearly 70 points at the moment of this writing today)...

    Finally, if our credit rating as a nation goes down and it forces interest rates up, that only ADDS to the debt. A .6% increase in our interest rate would result in an additional $1 Trillion being added to the national debt over the next decade. Not to mention that if people lose retirement funds due to market hits and pay more interest on existing loans (all loans are tied to the rate our government pays), they'll spend less and the economy will slow even further, which will lower revenues coming into government, only making the debt grow even more.

    That's why this is frustrating. My side has been far from perfect in this debate. I'll admit that. But when you think that you hold all the cards when you only hold about 1/3 of them, you look foolish and a bit delusional. And that delusion is starting to look dangerous to the well-being of everyone - not just the government.
    I have said on numerous occasions...they need to mandate a balanced budget amendment. They need to have a clearly defined and legislated plan to achieve debt reduction and they will need to raise taxes until that is accomplished. I dont know of anyone that thinks saying 'poof! a balanced budget' is going to solve anything. Of course it requires a clearly defined plan. Unfortunately we have partisan politicians invested in reelection and preservation of party and not in doing whats right for the country. And lets not let the citizens off the hook. The citizens are just fine bitching about politics...as long as Sammy is slipping them that free cheese.
    Massive spending cuts across the board. Sundowned tax increases specifically targeted to pay down the debt. Incentivize industry to bring back jobs. Bring labor and industry back to the table for realistic negotions to rebuild our industrial base. Not simple. Doable. Necessary.

  3. #103
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Wouldn't it be nice if that were true! Unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. Take Texas for example. They have a balanced budget amendment and they were staring a $27 BILLION deficit in the face (how 'bout them fiscal conservatives!). Obviously they had to cut $27 billion in spending, right?

    Not so much. Sure, they cut a lot of spending, but they also borrowed from their own rainy day fund and forced local governments all over the state to do the same. In essence it was just an accounting trick to allow the state to get around the balanced budget requirement. It was still deficit spending. Many other states have done the same thing (see Minnesota, for example).
    States get around the balanced budget requirement by issuing bonds which are a form of.....gasp....debt
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  4. #104
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Then shame on the citizens from the state of Texas. Personally...I believe balancing the federal budget will be much more do-able when they get out of the business of saving the planet. The fed should not be providing social services. That responsibility should belong to the individual citizens, their families, charitable organizations, and where needed local and state governments. The fed should not be involved in education. every state has a dept of education. same goes with transportation. Pay down the debt, return the responsibilities to the states, let the states be beholden to their citizens.
    Shaming them won't change the fact that the requirement for a balanced budget is easily gotten around. It doesn't prevent debt.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    I have said on numerous occasions...they need to mandate a balanced budget amendment. They need to have a clearly defined and legislated plan to achieve debt reduction and they will need to raise taxes until that is accomplished. I dont know of anyone that thinks saying 'poof! a balanced budget' is going to solve anything. Of course it requires a clearly defined plan. Unfortunately we have partisan politicians invested in reelection and preservation of party and not in doing whats right for the country. And lets not let the citizens off the hook. The citizens are just fine bitching about politics...as long as Sammy is slipping them that free cheese.
    Massive spending cuts across the board. Sundowned tax increases specifically targeted to pay down the debt. Incentivize industry to bring back jobs. Bring labor and industry back to the table for realistic negotions to rebuild our industrial base. Not simple. Doable. Necessary.
    Actually, aside from the amendment part (which I only oppose out of practicality - it will take a LOT of time and as shown in Texas, doesn't necessarily accomplish anything), I really don't see anything you've got there that I would completely disagree with. I'd be willing to bet that you and I could sit across from one another and come up with something that would work - even if we each had to give up some things we really wouldn't want to.

    I just wish politicians would do that. For a moment, I thought that was happening between Obama and Boehner and when word began about the "Grand Compromise", I thought we might be onto something. I wasn't necessarily thrilled with all of the potentialities, but the thought that something might happen that could really change what we're doing - not just in terms of spending, but in terms of how the parties function with one another - was kind of exciting.

    Alas, politics as usual reared it's ugly head.

    There was, to me, a shot at something, if not great, then at least fairly remarkable in politics. Point-tallying, instead, became the rule for the day.

    Oh, and this just from a few minutes ago:

    Tide turning against House GOP, which delays debt ceiling vote - TheHill.com

    Boehner's bill is still struggling in the House.
    Last edited by FilmFestGuy; 07-28-11 at 06:46 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    States get around the balanced budget requirement by issuing bonds which are a form of.....gasp....debt
    That, and they borrow from their own programs and trust funds. Of course that borrowed money has to be repayed, so it is again ... gasp ... debt.

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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by FilmFestGuy View Post
    Actually, aside from the amendment part (which I only oppose out of practicality - it will take a LOT of time and as shown in Texas, doesn't necessarily accomplish anything), I really don't see anything you've got there that I would completely disagree with. I'd be willing to bet that you and I could sit across from one another and come up with something that would work - even if we each had to give up some things we really wouldn't want to.

    I just wish politicians would do that. For a moment, I thought that was happening between Obama and Boehner and when word began about the "Grand Compromise", I thought we might be onto something. I wasn't necessarily thrilled with all of the potentialities, but the thought that something might happen that could really change what we're doing - not just in terms of spending, but in terms of how the parties function with one another - was kind of exciting.

    Alas, politics as usual reared it's ugly head.

    There was, to me, a shot at something, if not great, then at least fairly remarkable in politics. Point-tallying, instead, became the rule for the day.

    Oh, and this just from a few minutes ago:

    Tide turning against House GOP, which delays debt ceiling vote - TheHill.com

    Boehner's bill is still struggling in the House.
    Honestly? I believe MOST of us want what is best for the country...we just have different visions of how to accomplish it. I dont believe we can say that about either party in congress. Everyone in congress has painted themselves into their own respective corners.

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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Honestly? I believe MOST of us want what is best for the country...we just have different visions of how to accomplish it. I dont believe we can say that about either party in congress. Everyone in congress has painted themselves into their own respective corners.
    It's the danger of beginning a negotiation and starting with what you won't do. If you allow yourself no flexibility, you perceive any compromise as breaking instead of bending.

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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    House leaders delay vote on GOP bill extending debt limit, cutting spending - The Washington Post

    So, Google News says the vote is coming to the floor, so I click on C-Span on my computer at work, and instead find them changing the names of post offices in Illinois and New Jersey.

    Talk about anti-climactic.

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    Re: House GOP revolts against Boehner plan

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Why would you pass a "plan" that essentially only puts us right back into this mess six months from now instead of one that creates real changes in the way our federal government works?
    to make it a campaign issue; there will be another crisis in six months so that they can "hold the line" again and use it in their campaigns.

    a six month deal will not calm the markets, and it might not be enough to avoid losing our AAA rating. this makes me very angry. i hope that it makes a lot of other independents angry, as well.

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