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Thread: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

  1. #141
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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The corporation pays waaaaay more taxes than the worker. The corporation pay unemploymet, workman's comp, social security and medicare.

    Stop with the myths, please.
    Apparently you didn't understand, where do the profits come from in a corporation? The work that the workers do, they cannot come from anywhere else. Corporations collect taxes through workers surplus value. If there was no surplus there would be no profit, therefore the worker must be paid less than the value of their work. The problem is what is fair? That is one of the flaws in Capitalism. So what happens is the worker is paid the bare minimum the controllers can get away with and take an unfairly large some of the surplus for themselves. Then they have to gall to turn around and claim "I make all the money! I pay all the taxes!, this is SO unfair". The compensation is out of wack in the U.S., we've become accustomed to the idea that the CEO should be paid 1x 2x 3x thousand times more than the average worker. Without strong free market conditions to discourage this model, the barons get a pretty damn good deal.

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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheik Yerbuti View Post
    Tonight's speeches were all about blaming "the other guy" to lay the ground work for excuses for when the **** hits the fan next week. Republicans of late have been the party of "no." Now we will learn if that's the sort of government America wants.

    The Republicans passed a plan. The Dems said "no". (Except of course for the Dems that also voted for it)

  3. #143
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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Is anybody else having computer issues?

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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by Verax View Post
    Apparently you didn't understand, where do the profits come from in a corporation? The work that the workers do, they cannot come from anywhere else. Corporations collect taxes through workers surplus value. If there was no surplus there would be no profit, therefore the worker must be paid less than the value of their work. The problem is what is fair? That is one of the flaws in Capitalism. So what happens is the worker is paid the bare minimum the controllers can get away with and take an unfairly large some of the surplus for themselves. Then they have to gall to turn around and claim "I make all the money! I pay all the taxes!, this is SO unfair". The compensation is out of wack in the U.S., we've become accustomed to the idea that the CEO should be paid 1x 2x 3x thousand times more than the average worker. Without strong free market conditions to discourage this model, the barons get a pretty damn good deal.
    I'm going to guess this is why corporations like GM and Chysler was so successful.

  5. #145
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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Perry View Post
    I'm going to guess this is why corporations like GM and Chysler was so successful.
    GM and Chrysler were quite successful when workers were paid much more relative to the CEO. Unfortunately management then decided to kick the can down the road (as we must now say). Rather than raise pay, they negotiated generous health care and pension benefits. The downside there is that it hamstrings management's ability to respond to down times, and of course those benefits are cumulative.

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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    GM and Chrysler were quite successful when workers were paid much more relative to the CEO. Unfortunately management then decided to kick the can down the road (as we must now say). Rather than raise pay, they negotiated generous health care and pension benefits. The downside there is that it hamstrings management's ability to respond to down times, and of course those benefits are cumulative.
    Right, it had nothing to do with paying people to sit around all day doing nothing.

    The Wall Street Journal Classroom Edition

    I'm not about to defend CEO's getting paid huge sums of money all the while the company is losing money but part of the problem is people not willing to either care or understand all of the problems.

  7. #147
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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Tiny, tiny disagreement with you. I think pandering is telling people what they want to hear, whether the speaker actually agrees with it or not, in order to gain something.
    True, there must be some sort of gain from it, but that gain is implied by the fact that it rallies their supporters. I also feel that pandering must be devoid of any real substance and aimed at garnering an emotional reaction.

    I feel both speeches fit this description.

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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDan View Post
    Pandering? Yeah, but we can still grade them on honesty and effectiveness.
    True. But, IMO, they both contained lies of ommission as well as outright dishonesty. I personally don't care who was more dishonest, because my grading scale on that one is a simple dichotomy: honest or dishonest. They both got the latter grade.

    And judging by the reactions in this thread according to demographic, I'd say they were equally effective in rallying the people who already agree with them.

    I don't think either speech was good enough sway people on the fence on the issue. They both came across like pandering douchebags to me, and judging by other people's comments and agreements here, that was how they came off ot a lot of people.

    What I'm really interested in is how the commentator reaction to the speeches might influence views.

    I watched the speeches on FOX like some other people did, and Shepard Smith's immediate comments about each speech were somewhat suprising as he came across as promoting Obama's approach to me. Especially his dig at Boehner right after he spoke regarding Boehner's claim that 5 democrats counted as bipartisan support. I thought he was blatantly biased in favor of Obama with his reaction, actually. I'm interested in how that will go over. Sometimes having one lie exposed immediately has more of a detrimental effect than having multiple lies exposed later will.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-26-11 at 09:20 AM.

  9. #149
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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyDan View Post
    I thought we were going to discuss reactions to the speech. Except for the NYT rah-rah piece, these seem to be pre-speech reports. Since that's allowed, let me lower The Krauthammer

    Krauthammer: Obama "Has Gone From Emperor To Bystander" | RealClearPolitics
    I actually fell pretty damn smart for saying what Krauthammer said, before I knew he said it. *struts*
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


  10. #150
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    Re: BREAKING: President Obama Addresses the Nation Tonight at 9

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Call is slippery slope if you like, but it makes sense that, if you believe raising taxes on the so called rich is the only right and moral thing to do then the you must also believe that the higher the taxation, the more moral and right it is, especially since I've never seen someone who advocates for taxing the rich express how much, they think, would finally be enough.

    Also, you're speaking of corporations as if they don't contribute anything (like jobs and taxes) or provide any service. You also ignore the reality that anyone starting a business also runs the risk of having it fail spectacularly. The only reason to incur such risk is the potential for great reward. I know how distasteful the word "profit" is to some, but many people, rich and poor, benefit from the things brought about because of a motive to make money.

    I don't disagree that everyone should pay. The rich are paying and fully about half of the population is supported by the other half. Tell me how the so called poor (folks in other countries would just love the standard of living our poor have) are paying when they somehow get a tax refund on taxes they never had to pay. I'd really be interested in knowing how much "soaking the rich" would be enough for you.
    good point-as long as the rich keep making money or having money to invest there are those who want them to pay more and more because the labor under the delusion that the government GIVES the rich stuff



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