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Thread: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Slavery. The ability to regulate slavery was not given to the Federal Government in the Constitution.
    Are you saying that they could not regulate importation of slaves after 1808?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    You can't see the difference in pre-Civil War and after? Before the Civil War, it was thought that States had the right to nullify Federal law and secede from the Union. The Civil War settled those arguments as well (in the negative). That's what I'd call a fundamental switch.
    Sorry, but this doesn't address the issue. You keep moving the target. We were discussing Madison and Hamilton. We were last discussing the bank and how it came after constitutional intent was defined. Now we are going to leap to the Civil War and the legislation that followed. I still don't see anything that changed the Constitution with regards to authority of the Federal Government; except, that it would have the added powers to ensure that the States provided certain rights to others. I am still looking for something that gives the Federal Government unlimited authority to do x, y, and z. You have not shown me that nor has anyone else here done that. They have just made the claim that the government can do it and can do it without amendment.

    Maybe there are two constitutons. One for liberals and one for conservatives. If so, I still have yet to see the liberal one.

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Daley: GOP wants "their way or highway" on debt - CBS News

    Face the Nation: White House Chief of Staff William Daley

    In an appearance on CBS' "Face the Nation," Daley contended that President Obama and leaders in Congress had been "extremely close" to a deal on Friday night, but that House Speaker John Boehner had abandoned negotiations rather than urge his party to agree to the bipartisan plan.

    "The truth is, we were probably 85 percent there," Daley told CBS' Bob Schieffer. "There were different options on different items. Much of it related to what would be the best strategy to get the needed votes to pass this, because it was going to be very hard for Democrats with the amount of entitlement cuts...And at the same time, the Speaker was going to have to go to caucus and say, 'There is a need for revenue to solve our problem.' And that's where the breakdown happened."

    "Speaker Boehner...walked away twice from a deal with the president which would have finally begun a serious attempt to cut spending," Daley added.
    Further: What gives him the right to not even give his caucus a say??

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    Are you saying that they could not regulate importation of slaves after 1808?
    No, I'm saying that nowhere in the Constitution is Congress or the President given any authority to legislate against slavery. Not in the states, and according to the Dred Scott decision, not in Federal Territories either.



    Sorry, but this doesn't address the issue.
    Au contraire, we were talking about the relative power of states vs. Feds. That power structure profoundly changed in the wake of the Civil War, never to go back again. You can talk about Madison all you like, but his country hasn't existed since at least 1860. To go back to the original framers would be to ignore the past 150 years of American history.

    Maybe there are two constitutons. One for liberals and one for conservatives. If so, I still have yet to see the liberal one.
    Strangely, I haven't seen either of these. I have seen plenty of well-intentioned people disagree over what exactly it says.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    No, I'm saying that nowhere in the Constitution is Congress or the President given any authority to legislate against slavery. Not in the states, and according to the Dred Scott decision, not in Federal Territories either.
    You just agreed that the Constitution allowed Congress to ban importation of slaves as of 1806. However, even if it mentioned absolutely nothing, the Constitution was amended to end slavery. Where is the amendment that allows Congress unlimited authority?

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Au contraire, we were talking about the relative power of states vs. Feds. That power structure profoundly changed in the wake of the Civil War, never to go back again. You can talk about Madison all you like, but his country hasn't existed since at least 1860. To go back to the original framers would be to ignore the past 150 years of American history.
    What amendment changed the power structure profoundly? Which amendment negated Article I, section 8? I am not ignoring any of the history.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Strangely, I haven't seen either of these. I have seen plenty of well-intentioned people disagree over what exactly it says.
    Are you sure there are not two? Well, if not, then which of these amendments provided Congress with unlimited authority?


    Article. XIII.
    [Proposed 1865; Ratified 1865]
    Section. 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

    Section. 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

    Article. XIV.
    [Proposed 1866; Allegedly ratified 1868.
    Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

    Section. 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

    Section. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

    Section. 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


    Article. XV.
    [Proposed 1869; Ratified 1870]
    Section. 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

    Section. 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


    Please be specific and point out which words actually provided Congress with unlimited authority.

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse - Political Hotsheet - CBS News



    Boehner? I hope it was worth it, you worthless sac (spelling intentional) of ****.
    Do you really think the Boehner is that useful? At least common manure does have a functional gardening usage.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Do you really think the Boehner is that useful? At least common manure does have a functional gardening usage.
    Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!

    You have now joined another member here as you are quite a stitch too.

    Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post

    What amendment changed the power structure profoundly? Which amendment negated Article I, section 8? I am not ignoring any of the history.
    No amendments. It still changed. Saying the Civil War didn't change anything is, frankly, the sort of absolutely ignorant thing that I expect Michele Bachmann to say. If you think the change in how power happened in this country is wrong, you have the right to think so. Get in your time machine and go tell Abraham Lincoln. It did change. Power effectively moved up the ladder.

    Should we reverse everything that isn't in the Constitution? I think Sarah Palin's fans wouldn't be very happy because you just negated the purchase of Alaska (and the entire Louisiana Purchase). You can't go back, that shark's been jumped.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  8. #208
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    No amendments. It still changed. Saying the Civil War didn't change anything is, frankly, the sort of absolutely ignorant thing that I expect Michele Bachmann to say. If you think the change in how power happened in this country is wrong, you have the right to think so. Get in your time machine and go tell Abraham Lincoln. It did change. Power effectively moved up the ladder.

    Should we reverse everything that isn't in the Constitution? I think Sarah Palin's fans wouldn't be very happy because you just negated the purchase of Alaska (and the entire Louisiana Purchase). You can't go back, that shark's been jumped.
    OMG!!!

    Article V, Constitution of the United States of America
    The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

    I take it that this part of the Constitution was made null and void during Reconstruction or shortly thereafter. Is that correct? Can you provide any documentation that this part of the Constitution was made null and void?

    If amending was no longer necessary to change the Constitution and that the Federal Government was all powerful, why do we have Amendments beginning with the Sixteenth on? Why is that and do you have any documentation to support your views on this.

    I have read many books on the Constitution and my current reading regards the Fourteenth Amendment. I have read the Journal of the 39th Congress which is the Congress who wrote the Fourteenth Amendment and I cannot find where they mentioned anything about your thesis.

    Since this is so clear to you, it must be obvious that there is a great deal of evidence to support your theory. I look forward to reviewing.

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    Fark said it best. "Boehner goes limp, pulls out."
    How rude to have left Obama on his hands and knees.

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    How rude to have left Obama on his hands and knees.
    I'd agree with you if the rest of us weren't, figuratively speaking, tied up and bent over waiting for the deadline for everybody else's turn.

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