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Thread: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

  1. #171
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So you believe in supporting a classless act, to the death.
    No, I don't support the classlessness of interrupting a speech but I do support politicians speaking their mind.

    It's the rightwingers who support classlessness. In fact, they applaud it
    Last edited by sangha; 07-23-11 at 07:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    We *HAD* a surplus.....that is until bush* and the republicans went on their spending spree
    Continuing to repeat a myth that's been proven wrong time and again does not make it true.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...n-surplus.html
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  3. #173
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    Therefor our founding fathers gave us a process for for called amendments, it the process today that is being neglected, bypassed, overlooked and lastly ignored.
    Sure, but if it's already Constitutional, then there's no need to amend right? Isn't that why the push to amend to ban gay marriage? If it wasn't allowed, there would be no need to change the Constitution.

    So basically, if you can't agree on what is already allowed, how can you agree on what needs to be changed?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oborosen View Post
    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

  4. #174
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Continuing to repeat a myth that's been proven wrong time and again does not make it true.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...n-surplus.html
    Wrong again. All you have to do is look to the source

    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/pdf/hist.pdf

    page 22, fourth collumn from the right, labelled "On Budget Surplus or deficit"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  5. #175
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    I'd agree, but I find your "Madison and Hamilton" statement interesting. Madison and Hamilton didn't agree on what it said. You'd think that they would know, but they profoundly disagreed about it.

    If the people that wrote the thing can't agree on what it says, you can't expect us to agree 200+ years later.
    Please allow me to provide a bit of historical perspective to your comments. First, your characterization of Hamilton and Madison is not totally accurate. In the convention, Madison and Hamilton differed in degree over federalism. Hamilton, at that time, was more of a nationalist than one who believed in federalism. However, in the Convention, each said the following, "He [Madison] had stated in Philadelphia, "I mean however, to preserve the state rights with the same care, as I would trials by jury," so dear to the hearts of the Founders. "One gentleman alone (Col. Hamilton)," Dr. William Johnson stated in the Convention, boldly and decisively contended for an abolition of the State Govts." And, Hamilton stated in the Convention that he alone stood for what he did and no one agreed with him. So, for Hamilton's role in the Convention itself, he was alone and lost the argument to Madison and others.

    But then came the selling of the Constitution to the delegates of the State Ratifying Conventions. Here, Hamilton played a key role, along with Madison, in convincing the people of the States to ratify the Constitution that Hamilton had previously not agreed to.

    Next, the Federalist Papers were written mostly by Hamilton and Madison. When you read those papers you find very little difference between the two Founders.

    The plan reported by the convention, by extending the authority of the federal head to the individual citizens of the several States, will enable the government to employ the ordinary magistracy of each, in the execution of its laws. It is easy to perceive that this will tend to destroy, in the common apprehension, all distinction between the sources from which they might proceed; and will give the federal government the same advantage for securing a due obedience to its authority which is enjoyed by the government of each State, in addition to the influence on public opinion which will result from the important consideration of its having power to call to its assistance and support the resources of the whole Union. It merits particular attention in this place, that the laws of the Confederacy, as to the ENUMERATED and LEGITIMATE objects of its jurisdiction, will become the SUPREME LAW of the land; to the observance of which all officers, legislative, executive, and judicial, in each State, will be bound by the sanctity of an oath. Thus the legislatures, courts, and magistrates, of the respective members, will be incorporated into the operations of the national government AS FAR AS ITS JUST AND CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY EXTENDS; and will be rendered auxiliary to the enforcement of its laws. - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist # 27

    We have seen that in the new government, as in the old, the general powers are limited; and that the States, in all unenumerated cases, are left in the enjoyment of their sovereign and independent jurisdiction. The truth is, that the great principles of the Constitution proposed by the convention may be considered less as absolutely new, than as the expansion of principles which are found in the articles of Confederation. The misfortune under the latter system has been, that these principles are so feeble and confined as to justify all the charges of inefficiency which have been urged against it, and to require a degree of enlargement which gives to the new system the aspect of an entire transformation of the old. In one particular it is admitted that the convention have departed from the tenor of their commission. Instead of reporting a plan requiring the confirmation OF THE LEGISLATURES OF ALL THE STATES, they have reported a plan which is to be confirmed by the PEOPLE, and may be carried into effect by NINE STATES ONLY. - James Madison, Federalist # 40

    The principles established in a former paper teach us that the States will retain all PRE-EXISTING authorities which may not be exclusively delegated to the federal head; and that this exclusive delegation can only exist in one of three cases: where an exclusive authority is, in express terms, granted to the Union; or where a particular authority is granted to the Union, and the exercise of a like authority is prohibited to the States; or where an authority is granted to the Union, with which a similar authority in the States would be utterly incompatible. Though these principles may not apply with the same force to the judiciary as to the legislative power, yet I am inclined to think that they are, in the main, just with respect to the former, as well as the latter. And under this impression, I shall lay it down as a rule, that the State courts will RETAIN the jurisdiction they now have, unless it appears to be taken away in one of the enumerated modes. - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist # 82

    At the time of the Ratification Conventions, Hamilton, like Madison, was a salesman for the idea that the Constitution was one of a limited government due to enumerated powers. In fact, on June 17, 1788, Alexander Hamilton spoke to the New York delegation and said this, "The State governments possess inherent advantages, which will ever give them an influence and ascendancy over the National Government, and will for ever preclude the possibility of federal encroachments. That their liberties, indeed, can be subverted by the federal head, is repugnant to every rule of political calculation." And, on the same day, he said, "While the constitution continues to be read, and its principles known, the states, must, by every, rational man, be considered as essential component parts of the union; and therefore the idea of sacrificing the former to the latter is totally inadmissible." More evidence that Hamilton had converted, at least temporarily, to the concept of federalism.

    After the Constitution was ratified, Hamilton became Secretary of the Treasury. It was at this time that he and Madison parted ways. However, this is after the Convention, and more importantly, it is after the Ratification Conventions where both stood side-by-side and provided the same thoughts about limited government with the States having sovereignty over those things not enumerated as authority to the Federal Government.

    I could provide much more, but I think this will get across my point.

  6. #176
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Wrong again. All you have to do is look to the source

    http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/pdf/hist.pdf

    page 22, fourth collumn from the right, labelled "On Budget Surplus or deficit"
    Nope... sorry. Try again?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #177
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    But the fact remains that when it comes to the debt, one party is more to blame than the other, as my post clearly shows
    I realize that a partisan like you cannot comprehend things, but both parties are at fault.

  8. #178
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Nope... sorry. Try again?
    I gotcha! The CBO is wrong. It's the guy with a blog who knows the answer!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #179
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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The rightwingers love the Constitution so much, they can't stop calling for it to be changed.
    Yes, by amendment. It has been changed previously. It can be changed again in the future. That's the nature of our Constitution. That is what the Founders envisioned. I would think anyone would know that.

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    Re: Obama, Boehner at war over debt talk collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I take it you do not recall the republican shouting "You Lie!!" during a SOTU speech
    I recall it well. We were talking about the President. I know it is difficult for some to follow a train of thought, but we cannot wait for everyone to get it. Carry on.

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