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Thread: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    I blame this on everyone involved, because they are all playing for the public relations angle and no one has their eyes on the true goal that would be in the best interest Nation not one Party or the the other lame one.

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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    So. What do we do now? Close our eyes, and think of England?

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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I'm almost inclind to agree, but here's the catch: Folks who have read the Constitution will know that the blame is fully on Congress should the nation default, not the President. Why? Art. 1, Section 8, clause 2:
    True, but the other three quarters or so of voters won't know who to blame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    If the full faith and credit is diminished and the country cannot borrow money to pay its debts or if the value of our nation's currency is lowered because other countries no longer have confidence that the dollar is worth as much now as it once did and that lack of confidence holds true for a significant duration of time, Congress will be to blame because it is written in the Constitution that maintaining the full faith and credit of the United States is one of their enumerated powers. Thus, it is their responsibility to maintain the nation's credit worthiness.
    Yes, it is the responsibility of Congress, no question.

    So, let's hope that behind closed doors, when there is no one out there to witness their leaping, hooting, and pointing of fingers, perhaps they are working on a real solution to this problem .
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    True, but the other three quarters or so of voters won't know who to blame.

    Unfortunatley given our Public Educational system and the media that many enjoy they will never know that. Many aren't even taught the specific functions of these entities.
    As long as Boehner can go on Fox News Sunday and say that while Congress has devised a plan and the President has not speaks volumes about a lack of understanding.
    This is the responsibility of the House to devise a plan that is agreeable to the Senate, House and President. As long as Obama doesnt' say that its Congress' duty then itll never change.

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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    I blame this on everyone involved, because they are all playing for the public relations angle and no one has their eyes on the true goal that would be in the best interest Nation not one Party or the the other lame one.
    It is true that both sides are playing party politics, I believe the President has the better viewpoint and here's why?

    Yes, the country has had a spending problem, but let's not pretend that the spending just began under his presidency. Let's not forget, we had TWO wars and both wars required billions of dollars to support. Now, members of the GOP have told us "we're broke", but they also say we're the richest and most powerful country in the world. How can they hold both viewpoints?

    People have been posting charts and graphes to this forum for months. Some of those illustrations shows how much this country brings in in tax revenue and how much we've had going out to date. Others have provided long-range revenues and outlays since as far back and 1929. A few of those illustrations have shown that this country hasn't been taking in as much tax revenue for atleast the last 25 years. Over that time, we have fought in or funded four wars (Somalia, Desert Storm, Irag and Afghanistan), engaged in atleast two military campaigns (Granada and now Libya), have had a number of natural disasters and alteast two man-made disasters (ExxonValdez and BP oil spills). We've also increase the availability of prescription drugs to Medicare patients without appropriating funds for it. Now, I understand that entitlement programs are costing our country billions of dollars every year as well, and the price tags have increased it seem each year, but these same people are also telling us that our society is both living longer and that many among our senior citizens aren't as healthy in comparison to those who came before them a generation ago. So, those additional cost affect Social Security and Medicare payouts. But that doesn't explain the other entitlement program, Medicaid.

    It is true that many of our nation's citizens aren't stepping up to their personal responsibilities, but there are many who for reasons beyond their control have to utilize Medicaid insurance to seek medical care. One example is Wal-Mart. Not more than six years ago reports circulated that "Medicaid expenditures increase by 1.5% for every 1% that the market share of Wal-Mart increases in a state." Furthermore, if you scroll down in that same linked source above, you'll find a news brief that mentions an internal memo by Wal-mart officials recommending that "Wal-Mart hire more part-time employees and discourage unhealthy job applicants to help reduce health care costs." This practise clearly confirms the claim made in the preceeding article. That's one example how corporate entities have forced more people until the federal dole. There's also natural disasters that have displaced hundreds of thousands. Then we have the housing bubble that have cost so many people their jobs since 2008. Those numbers have increased based on the actions of Republican leadership among some of the states by reducing expenditures to our public schools, thereby forcing layoff to teachers and other public employees. Many have had to retire because their retirement benefits have been significantly altered. It's not what they dedicated up to 20 years of their lives and gave of their hard earned income just to have those benefits reduced because their respective states didn't manage their financies properly.

    It might be more beneficial to turn states into "right to work" states in order to make it easier to attract businesses or provide handsome tax breaks if no taxes at all for extended periods to lure business to a state, but when you allow businesses to go for 25-30 years (as was nearly the case for a foreign business that wanted to set up shop in Mobile, AL about three years ago) and your state is already hurting for revenue, all you've done is remove even more revenue from your state. So, to trim cost what have state's done? Shut down state governments, left "IOUs", forced public employees off their jobs by cutting costs and not rehiring.

    There are problems all around, but only someone who has ignored events over the last 25-30 years would think that our nation's economic problems began on January 20, 2009. Yes, the Treasury has spent at least $1 trillion since Obama has come into office, but much of that spending has been done out of necessity. Our economy was in chaos when he took office. Between the actions taken by former President GW Bush before he left office (TARP) and President Obama once in office (ARRA, aka, the Stimulus bill), I bellieve those actions kept things from getting alot worse.

    So, now we're at this crossroad called the debt ceiling. The President has shown a willingness to cut spending including reducing outlays to Medicare and other entitlement programs. He's asked in return that such cuts don't affect the benefits to our sick, our elderly and the unemployed as affected by the economic downturn and from these natural disasters, and for some revenue to help pay for those benefits and to invest in our country's future by funding research in science or paying for repairs to our nation's infrastructure. And he's asking that of those who either helped to make this mess or of those who can afford to pay more in taxes. As much as some people would like an "shared sacrafic" by all, I don't see how that's possible when the very side of the political divide contiues to ask, "where are the jobs" yet insist that the poor should pay more, too? Does it make sense to demand of a poor man or one who has no income to pay more? With what shall he pay it?

    I believe President Obama sees the larger picture and is trying to be fair to all sides. Based on our nation's current economic state, I really don't think that what he's asking for in these debt ceiling negotiations is too much to ask.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 07-25-11 at 02:46 AM.

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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    It is true that both sides are playing party politics, I believe the President has the better viewpoint and here's why?
    Do tell....

    Yes, the country has had a spending problem, but let's not pretend that the spending just began under his presidency.
    No, it didn't. And the repubs paid a price for that in 2006 and 2008. Since that time spending has exploded.

    Let's not forget, we had TWO wars and both wars required billions of dollars to support.
    Yet military spending as a percentage of GDP has remained relatively the same for decades. The wars over time have been miniscule in spending when compared to the social welfare programs of the progressive demo's.

    Now, members of the GOP have told us "we're broke", but they also say we're the richest and most powerful country in the world. How can they hold both viewpoints?
    Because it is true. We are the richest country on the face of the earth, due to our natural resources, that we either won't, or can't due to over regulation, exploit. Think of the Billions given to Brazil's Petrobras (Soros) while at the same time telling them we'd like to be their best customer....

    People have been posting charts and graphes to this forum for months. Some of those illustrations shows how much this country brings in in tax revenue and how much we've had going out to date. Others have provided long-range revenues and outlays since as far back and 1929. A few of those illustrations have shown that this country hasn't been taking in as much tax revenue for atleast the last 25 years.
    Wouldn't this have much more to do with the 'Baby Boom' generation retiring, than it does not taxing enough.

    Over that time, we have fought in or funded four wars (Somalia, Desert Storm, Irag and Afghanistan), engaged in atleast two military campaigns (Granada and now Libya), have had a number of natural disasters and alteast two man-made disasters (ExxonValdez and BP oil spills).
    Do you have a cost vs. time span for all of these things you list here?

    We've also increase the availability of prescription drugs to Medicare patients without appropriating funds for it.
    And what do you think Obamacare will do? Or are you of the Robert Reich viewpoint?

    Now, I understand that entitlement programs are costing our country billions of dollars every year as well, and the price tags have increased it seem each year, but these same people are also telling us that our society is both living longer and that many among our senior citizens aren't as healthy in comparison to those who came before them a generation ago. So, those additional cost affect Social Security and Medicare payouts. But that doesn't explain the other entitlement program, Medicaid.
    Medicare and Medicaid are linked in their cost analysis. However both are social welfare programs that are not enumerated in the constitution. I think that any honest analysis of social welfare programs vs. military expenditure one would have to admit that social welfare programs cost far more than our military.

    It is true that many of our nation's citizens aren't stepping up to their personal responsibilities, but there are many who for reasons beyond their control have to utilize Medicaid insurance to seek medical care.
    Depends on what you mean by "circumstances beyond ones control".... personal responsibility is just that, and it seems that by assigning anyones circumstance as being beyond their control, or unchangeable you take that personal accountability away for them. This is America, you can do, or be whatever you want, if you have the will that is.

    One example is Wal-Mart. Not more than six years ago reports circulated that "Medicaid expenditures increase by 1.5% for every 1% that the market share of Wal-Mart increases in a state." Furthermore, if you scroll down in that same linked source above, you'll find a news brief that mentions an internal memo by Wal-mart officials recommending that "Wal-Mart hire more part-time employees and discourage unhealthy job applicants to help reduce health care costs." This practise clearly confirms the claim made in the preceeding article. That's one example how corporate entities have forced more people until the federal dole.
    In that Wal Mart is the largest employer in the US, I would say that is a problem not with Wal Mart making decisions to find ways to reduce their benefits payouts, we've all seen jobs with crappy benefits, and it is not a law that benefits are mandated by law for any employer to provide, but I think more a problem with the nanny state trying to force business to do things in line with decades old liberal policies that they are not responsible for. Also, what does it say about this country that Wal Mart is the largest employer in the first place?

    There's also natural disasters that have displaced hundreds of thousands.
    This country will continue to have 'Acts of God' that are devastating and as our population rises are tragedy to watch for the people involved. Certainly you are not suggesting that the Government is empowered to tell people where they can live are you? Or that the Government is responsible to make people whole after such disaster?

    Then we have the housing bubble that have cost so many people their jobs since 2008.
    Yep, and a bubble that was avoidable had demo leadership in congress listened to republican leaders as this debacle was unfolding.



    This housing crisis was avoidable, sans the effort of both parties to buy votes by basically giving home loans to people who historically could never afford them.

    Those numbers have increased based on the actions of Republican leadership among some of the states by reducing expenditures to our public schools, thereby forcing layoff to teachers and other public employees. Many have had to retire because their retirement benefits have been significantly altered. It's not what they dedicated up to 20 years of their lives and gave of their hard earned income just to have those benefits reduced because their respective states didn't manage their financies properly.
    How can you manage a bully, or thug demanding more and more of the budget, then gaming the system to steal from the taxpayer? Interesting though that you see only a certain segment of worker in this country as entitled.

    It might be more beneficial to turn states into "right to work" states in order to make it easier to attract businesses or provide handsome tax breaks if no taxes at all for extended periods to lure business to a state, but when you allow businesses to go for 25-30 years (as was nearly the case for a foreign business that wanted to set up shop in Mobile, AL about three years ago) and your state is already hurting for revenue, all you've done is remove even more revenue from your state. So, to trim cost what have state's done? Shut down state governments, left "IOUs", forced public employees off their jobs by cutting costs and not rehiring.
    States that are 'right to work' states seem to have an easier time through things like this Obama economy. Take a look at my state. SC. Sure we have our pockets of high unemployment like every other state does now, but we are still attracting business. Compare that with say MI, or IL.

    There are problems all around, but only someone who has ignored events over the last 25-30 years would think that our nation's economic problems began on January 20, 2009.
    No one with any intelligence say that. Strawman argument, and platitude are not what wins the debate anymore.

    Yes, the Treasury has spent at least $1 trillion since Obama has come into office, but much of that spending has been done out of necessity.
    Try approaching $5 Trillion. In 3 years. And as for necessity? You call a Trillion dollar Stimulus package that when boiled down was little more than payola for the Presidents Union allies, and did NOTHING to unemployment a success?

    Our economy was in chaos when he took office.
    You don't want Obama to shoulder any of the blame for this mess, yet you would ask us to believe that this nations problems began with Bush...Weak argument. And doesn't play anymore with the American people.

    Between the actions taken by former President GW Bush before he left office (TARP) and President Obama once in office (ARRA, aka, the Stimulus bill), I bellieve those actions kept things from getting alot worse.
    Yet you have no metrics to show that to be true. Other than your partisan talking point blather. BTW, Obama used TARP as well.

    So, now we're at this crossroad called the debt ceiling. The President has shown a willingness to cut spending including reducing outlays to Medicare and other entitlement programs. He's asked in return that such cuts don't affect the benefits to our sick, our elderly and the unemployed as affected by the economic downturn and from these natural disasters, and for some revenue to help pay for those benefits and to invest in our country's future by funding research in science or paying for repairs to our nation's infrastructure.
    Obama says a lot of crap, where is his CBO scored plan? Where is the demo budget? MIA. So, based on Obama's last three years of lies, and misdirection using partisan, ideologue pap, I wouldn't trust what he says as far as I can throw him.

    And he's asking that of those who either helped to make this mess or of those who can afford to pay more in taxes. As much as some people would like an "shared sacrafic" by all, I don't see how that's possible when the very side of the political divide contiues to ask, "where are the jobs" yet insist that the poor should pay more, too? Does it make sense to demand of a poor man or one who has no income to pay more? With what shall he pay it?
    Class warfare is a Stalin like tactic. You know what happens when the proletariat become the bourgeoisie don't you? See every Socialist/Communist nation since time began. Failure or lack of human rights is the outcome.

    I believe President Obama sees the larger picture and is trying to be fair to all sides. Based on our nation's current economic state, I really don't think that what he's asking for in these debt ceiling negotiations is too much to ask.
    Obama has not warranted trust. Let's see the demo's and Obama cut the spending first, then maybe we can talk about revenues. Until then, we have been burned by this crapola by demo's before, Ask Bush I, and I for one don't trust the liar n chief.

    j-mac
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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    So. What do we do now? Close our eyes, and think of England?
    when I first heard that expression and what it meant I laughed and laugh every time since then.

    sadly, I do think we are in a period of history that corresponds with the period of the 1850's. One of the American History texts I used to use in class was written by Library of Congress historian Daniel Boorstin. The chapter on the 1850's was called THE FAILURE OF THE POLITICIANS. He described the various sides who assembled over the issue of slavery and states rights and how with the failure of the Compromise of 1950 to really resolve it, we were doomed to flounder in a decade whose only purpose was the lead up to the Civil War.

    While I am NOT prediciting a civil war - I do think we are in for a major crisis of the society changing sort the way the Civil War and the great Depression changed America. I fear it will not turn out well.

    I see groups like ALEC on the right who are years ahead in terms of organizing for this struggle and who now call the shots in some 20 state houses where Republicans hold the trifecta of power controlling the governors office, the House and State Senate. They are piece by piece repealing the 20th century in those states in terms of labor laws, public education, government services, the tax base and many other things vital ot the American middle class.

    I see people like Grover Norquist who has more actual political power than any fifty members of Congress put together and who is responsible to not one American voter. That is dangerous and a threat to our system of representative government.

    These are bad times and we are just entering into the darkness of the deep forest.

    If the far right wins, we could duplicate much of the fascist state of Mussolini's Italy. Of course, the American patriots on the right will swear up and down that they had nothing to do with it and it was not their intent or goal and they renounce corporate fascism with all their red white and blue blood. But it will be upon us just the same.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-25-11 at 10:46 AM.
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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    Quote Originally Posted by jgmotorsport View Post
    This is the responsibility of the House to devise a plan that is agreeable to the Senate, House and President. As long as Obama doesnt' say that its Congress' duty then itll never change.
    Hmmmm. Is this true? Let's reverse the rolls for a second. Let's say the Dems hold the House and the GOP holds the Senate and the Executive. The Dems put forth a proposal for cutting expeditures and it includes the following:

    Defense - $1.5 trillion over 10 years
    Tax increases on the wealthy - $700 billion over 10 years.
    No touching entitlements of any kind.

    This would be a $2.2 trillion dollar cut over 10 years.

    Okay, from here I will play the part of the GOP and you play the part of the Dems.

    GOP - Sorry, we don't accept your terms. While we agree to cuts in Defense, your cuts are far too deep. Second, we are for reform of the personal income tax code, so if you want to create 3 levels, lower the rates for each, discontinue deductions for home mortgages, and maintain revenue neutrality, we would be getting closer to a deal. Also, we would need to lower the rates business pays to 25%. Entitlements, and in particular Medicare and Medicaid must be reformed or they will end up dying. We need reform on those two programs.

    Okay, Dems in the House, "it is your responsibility to devise a plan that is agreeable to the Senate, House and President." Go for it.

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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    Quote Originally Posted by LesGovt View Post
    According to Boehner there was an agreement on tax revenues of lowering brackets and decreasing # of brackets, but then yesterday the President added over $400 billion additional new taxes. He changed the deal at the last moment. It appears negotiating with the President is like negotiating with "a bowl of Jell-o." Those were Boehner's words.

    Damn, Boehner said he would go to the WH tomorrow. Mistake!
    Here are Boehner's words also:

    "Last Sunday there I thought there was an agreement of $800 billion of new revenue [...] On Tuesday, the president said they needed more revenue. Mr. Cantor and I told the president no. Wednesday they said they needed more revenue. We said no. Thursday, we need more revenue. We said no. Friday afternoon, when the president called me and demanded $400 billion in more revenue, there's no way you can get that out of tax reform other than raising taxes on the American people."

    Now let's debunk this lie, and it is easily done. According to Boehner, he had an agreement on revenue on Friday until it fell apart on Thursday. Oops. Bohner ****ed up. LOL.
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    Re: Still No Budget Deal - Current Happenings

    Quote Originally Posted by BDBoop View Post
    So. What do we do now? Close our eyes, and think of England?
    To be fair, you been doing that since 1980 when you elected Reagan...
    PeteEU

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