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Thread: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not that has been demonstrated to me as of yet. All I hear about is cutting benefits to our seniors who have paid into the system their whole lives so we can continue to spend almost as much on military spending as the rest of the world combined, and tax breaks for people that do not even need them
    you are thinking about that entirely backwards. no government has the right to decide what it's people "need" and take everything else off the top. but those same wealthy "need" medicare and social security benefits? Government waste comes in the form of what it spends, not what it fails to take.

    When get to the point where we spend almost as much as the rest of the world combined on our seniors, and we eliminate the temporary tax cuts to the wealthy, then we can talk about cutting spending for our seniors.
    the entitlements going forward are what destroy us. you'll get no tax increases from me until you agree to address that.

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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you are thinking about that entirely backwards. no government has the right to decide what it's people "need" and take everything else off the top. but those same wealthy "need" medicare and social security benefits? Government waste comes in the form of what it spends, not what it fails to take.

    Yet that is exactly what they are doing with military spending.

    The wealthy get reduced benefits already. If you would like to reduce them further, I have no problem with that.

    So, you are saying the first thing you do if you incur a debt is take a job paying less money. Makes perfect sense.........to you!


    the entitlements going forward are what destroy us. you'll get no tax increases from me until you agree to address that.
    SS has taken in trillions more than it has paid out. The root problem of Medicare is the same problem with the unaffordable private health insurance companies, our health care system. Transferring that problem to the private market only adds to that cost higher administrative costs and profit.

    You'll get no cuts to senior's benefit from me until we cut the government's wasteful military spending and eliminate the temporary tax cuts to the wealthy.
    Last edited by Catawba; 07-23-11 at 02:18 AM.
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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Yet that is exactly what they are doing with military spending.
    that makes no sense. military spending is big, fine. it's still not as big as our entitlements, and those are set to expand dramatically going forward whereas DOD spending isn't.

    The wealthy get reduced benefits already. If you would like to reduce them further, I have no problem with that.
    I want them means tested, and I want some of them means tested out. As the Ryan plan called for. as for SS... it needs to be altered to provide actual "Security" to retirees.

    So, you are saying the first thing you do if you incur a debt is take a job paying less money. Makes perfect sense.........to you!
    nope. I am saying that if you are going into debt, stop spending before you begin to bug your boss for a raise. historically, we have had tax rates way above where they are currently, but they haven't brought in extra revenue. its the revenue that's important, not the tax rates. if you want a "better paying job", then you need to grow the economy.

    SS has taken in trillions more than it has paid out.
    historically yes. and we let our politicians spend those trillions on other goodies that we wanted. however, going forward Social Security expenditures are expected to skyrocket along with Medicare expenditures; and there is no money in the system to pay for either. We are running 1.5 Trillion deficits before said explosions - we are about as likely to see the kinds of surpluses in the General Fund that we would need to keep those programs going as we are to have the money given to us by Ferrangi landing on the planet in a generous mood.

    The sad reality is that we could cut DOD spending down to a dollar a year and we still couldn't afford our entitlements as currently structured. There is literally not enough money in the world to pay for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid as they are currently structured.

    So, they will be restructured. the only question is - will they be restructured in a manner of our choosing so as to protect current retirees? or will they be restructured a'la Greece, where current retirees are facing the cuts?

    The root problem of Medicare is the same problem with the unaffordable private health insurance companies, our health care system. Transferring that problem to the private market only adds to that cost higher administrative costs and profit.
    actually introducing market pressure has proven an amazingly successful way to reduce the growth in healthcare costs. Witness Medicare D, which held the growth in the cost of Prescription coverage to 1.2%, and came in at 41% less than estimates. that's amazing.

    You'll get no cuts to senior's benefit from me until we cut the government's wasteful military spending and eliminate the temporary tax cuts to the wealthy.
    then I guess we'll have to take it to the American people But military spending and the current tax rates aren't going to destroy our economy. Entitlement spending is.

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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    that makes no sense. military spending is big, fine. it's still not as big as our entitlements, and those are set to expand dramatically going forward whereas DOD spending isn't.

    We don't spend almost what the world does combined on entitlements, and most of that is paid by the people themselves for the services they receive. With Military spending, we don't tax for most of it, we take much of it from the funds payed into SS and put the rest on the national debt. That is why for the first time in our history we were able to give the rich tax cuts at the same time we were fighting two wars.

    I want them means tested, and I want some of them means tested out. As the Ryan plan called for. as for SS... it needs to be altered to provide actual "Security" to retirees.
    Ain't gonna happen. The seniors are the only demographic that has carried the GOP, without them they cannot win elections. That is why the GOP popularity immediately dropped when seniors learned the details of Ryan's plan.

    What we need to do, is the reverse of what created the SS problem. We need to drastically cut military spending and use that to repay the money taken from SS for future payments. If more is needed raise the FICA cap as needed since those are the ones that got the biggest tax break that was enabled by taking money from the SS trust fund.

    nope. I am saying that if you are going into debt, stop spending before you begin to bug your boss for a raise. historically, we have had tax rates way above where they are currently, but they haven't brought in extra revenue. its the revenue that's important, not the tax rates. if you want a "better paying job", then you need to grow the economy.
    And where you cut spending first would be where you have the biggest waste. That is the military. When that wasteful spending is cut, we can look at other less wasteful spending if you wish. If tax cuts created jobs we wouldn't have the unemployment rate we do. Sorry, this has been pedaled for 30 years and trickle down economics has not worked out for us. We are not falling for it any longer.


    historically yes. and we let our politicians spend those trillions on other goodies that we wanted. however, going forward Social Security expenditures are expected to skyrocket along with Medicare expenditures; and there is no money in the system to pay for either. We are running 1.5 Trillion deficits before said explosions - we are about as likely to see the kinds of surpluses in the General Fund that we would need to keep those programs going as we are to have the money given to us by Ferrangi landing on the planet in a generous mood.
    I described the solution above.

    The sad reality is that we could cut DOD spending down to a dollar a year and we still couldn't afford our entitlements as currently structured. There is literally not enough money in the world to pay for Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid as they are currently structured.
    That is why we will need to start repaying the SS trust fund from cutting wasteful military spending and increasing the FICA cap as necessary. You keep forgetting it took 30 years to get our debt where it is, it is probably going to take that long to get it down.

    So, they will be restructured. the only question is - will they be restructured in a manner of our choosing so as to protect current retirees? or will they be restructured a'la Greece, where current retirees are facing the cuts?
    That is what is being discussed today by our legislators. Ultimately, the voters will decide, as it should be.


    actually introducing market pressure has proven an amazingly successful way to reduce the growth in healthcare costs. Witness Medicare D, which held the growth in the cost of Prescription coverage to 1.2%, and came in at 41% less than estimates. that's amazing.
    Please name some other industrialized nations where the market approach to health care costs is working well?

    then I guess we'll have to take it to the American people But military spending and the current tax rates aren't going to destroy our economy. Entitlement spending is.
    I agree, the people will decide. We all agree we are spending too much, we just have different priorities and different perspectives of what is wasteful.

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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Isn't class warfare, and bastardization of language fun?


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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We don't spend almost what the world does combined on entitlements, and most of that is paid by the people themselves for the services they receive. With Military spending, we don't tax for most of it, we take much of it from the funds payed into SS and put the rest on the national debt.
    you are mistaken to assume that all borrowing goes first to military spending - Medicare draws heavily from the General Fund as well. furthermore, (again) Medicare is currently slated to collapse within the decade due to spiraling expenditures. We could cut literally every dollar from the DOD and we still could not save Medicare in it's current form. There is alot of efficiencies we could find in the DOD - we could put our military on HSA's as Indiana did, for example; or offer TSP matches instead of pensions. But even the President now agrees there is no way to tax our way to paying for Medicare.

    That is why for the first time in our history we were able to give the rich tax cuts at the same time we were fighting two wars.
    revenue increased after those tax cuts, the revenue paid by the rich increased after both of those tax cuts, and the share of revenue shouldered by the rich increased after both of those tax cuts. You seem to have "tax rates" confused with "revenue".

    Ain't gonna happen. The seniors are the only demographic that has carried the GOP, without them they cannot win elections. That is why the GOP popularity immediately dropped when seniors learned the details of Ryan's plan.
    and they seem to have liked the President's even worse. Plurality polls in favor of the Ryan Plan. Probably because they realize that the President will cut benefits for current Seniors, whereas the Ryan Plan only changes the program for those 54 and below.

    Though depending on how long it takes to enact it, that may have to change. Our window of time is shrinking rapidly.

    That we need to do, is the reverse of what created the SS problem. We need to drastically cut military spending and use that to repay the money taken from SS for future payments
    we do not have the ability to do this. Again, if we literally cut every single dollar from the DOD, it still does not keep Social Security and Medicare alive as they are currently structured.

    If more is needed raise the FICA cap as needed since those are the ones that got the biggest tax break that was enabled by taking money from the SS trust fund.
    and that doesn't get us there either. As even the AARP and the President is now willing to admit.

    And where you cut spending first would be where you have the biggest waste. That is the military.
    that is incorrect. the biggest waste we have is in Medicare, where fraud is an entire industry. Furthermore, once you start cutting Defense to the point where they can no longer take a forward leaning posture, you run into all kinds of ugly economy-destroying secondary effects.

    When that wasteful spending is cut, we can look at other less wasteful spending if you wish. If tax cuts created jobs we wouldn't have the unemployment rate we do.
    tax cuts are not one-stop-shopping; but the fact is that the proposed hikes in tax rates and the proposed hikes in regulatory burdens is indeed a major reason why we have the unemployment rate that we do.

    Sorry, this has been pedaled for 30 years and trickle down economics has not worked out for us. We are not falling for it any longer.
    to my knowledge no one has ever argued for anything called "trickle down" economics. But in fact over the past 30 years we have seen massive explosions in wealth as nations across the globe have liberated their economies and lowered their tax rates.

    I described the solution above.
    no, you didn't. I might as well suggest we pay for the DOD by cutting foriegn aid or the Department of Education.

    That is why we will need to start repaying the SS trust fund
    the SS Trust Fund will never be repayed. There isn't enough money in any budget for us to pay off our unfunded liabilities. There isn't enough money in the world for us to pay off our unfunded liabilities. Our current budget assumes that by 2021 the world will be willing to turn over no less than 20% of it's GDP to fund our entitlements. That is not happening.

    from cutting wasteful military spending and increasing the FICA cap as necessary. You keep forgetting it took 30 years to get our debt where it is, it is probably going to take that long to get it down.
    probably.

    everyone from Barack Obama to Bill Clinton to Paul Ryan to Ron Paul agree that it's the entitlements that drive our debt past the point where we become Greece. Cutting military spending to pay for it all is an aged hippy's pipe dream - simple back-of-the-envelope math reveals it to be a joke.

    That is what is being discussed today by our legislators. Ultimately, the voters will decide, as it should be.
    indeed.

    Please name some other industrialized nations where the market approach to health care costs is working well?
    Indiana seems to have done pretty well for itself - they are lowering costs while the rest of the nations' is jumping up rapidly.

    I agree, the people will decide. We all agree we are spending too much, we just have different priorities and different perspectives of what is wasteful.
    at this point it's not even a matter of priority. it's a matter of simple math. DOD spending grows geometrically; Entitlement spending grows exponentially.
    Last edited by cpwill; 07-23-11 at 09:44 AM.

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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    not really. they had hammered out a deal on a $800 Bn tax increase, and then Obama tried to throw another $400 Bn in at the last moment. Hence Boehners repetition of the "jello" analogy - you can't stand on anything the White House gives you. So Boehner told him he wasn't going to swing 1.2 Trillion in tax increases, and the undercurrent is that he sure as hell won't destroy his own career and party trying to swing 1.2 trillion in tax increases for someone who can't be trusted to hold to the deal.
    Well, the stuff about agreeing to a deal and then asking for more is standard politics. Both parties do it all the time, and both parties have done it in the debt ceiling debate. Since we never saw an agreement from Obama and Boehner, it's a bit hard to tell who is telling the truth in this case. But my best guess is that even if they did agree on an $800 billion tax increase, there is no way it would get through the House with or without Boehner's support. He'd probably have a mutiny on his hands.
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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Isn't class warfare, and bastardization of language fun?
    j-mac
    Class warfare is the cornerstone of Marxism...and the democratic party.

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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I am not willing to cut any of the funding for our seniors, at least until we get our wasteful government spending under control and end the temporary tax cuts to the wealthiest. After we address the waste, then we can look at modifying our health care system that is driving the high cost of health care in this country (for both private insurance and medicare).

    Why would you not want to cut wasteful spending before undercutting our seniors?
    seems to be a better idea to raise the ceiling on FICA before we look at cutting benefits to seniors who have already paid into the system their entire careers.

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    Re: 'Gang of Six' revives hope for big deal in stalled debt-ceiling talks

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you are mistaken to assume that all borrowing goes first to military spending - Medicare draws heavily from the General Fund as well. furthermore, (again) Medicare is currently slated to collapse within the decade due to spiraling expenditures. We could cut literally every dollar from the DOD and we still could not save Medicare in it's current form. There is alot of efficiencies we could find in the DOD - we could put our military on HSA's as Indiana did, for example; or offer TSP matches instead of pensions. But even the President now agrees there is no way to tax our way to paying for Medicare.
    Obama is no liberal, so we don't agree much of the time. "Fixing Medicare does not solve the underlying problem which is the fact that we have the most expensive health care system in the world. This has already been demonstrated by unaffordable private health insurance. In order to fix our unaffordable health care system we will have upgrade our health care system to UHC as the rest of the industrialized world have done.



    revenue increased after those tax cuts, the revenue paid by the rich increased after both of those tax cuts, and the share of revenue shouldered by the rich increased after both of those tax cuts. You seem to have "tax rates" confused with "revenue".
    That horse don't ride anymore:

    "WASHINGTON The Pulitzer Prize-winning fact-checker PolitiFact took on the Republican claim that reducing tax rates has always produced higher federal revenues, rating it "false."

    "Last November, PolitiFact took on the assertion by Rep. Mike Pence (R-IN) that "raising income tax rates will likely actually reduce federal revenues" -- and also rated it "false."
    GOP claim that tax cuts raise revenues rated ?False?
    Last edited by Catawba; 07-24-11 at 02:48 AM.
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