I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read more:

sangha · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

DiAnna said:
Then do not state as fact that women have special status under hate crimes statutes based solely on their gender when there has not been a single case of a mysoginist murderer being charged with a hate crime.

I will express my opinion however and whenever I choose.

Yes, they are the exact same murder. One murder is based upon hatred of women; the other is based upon hatred of minoritites, yet one is prosecuted as a hate crime and one is not. The law thus declares that the murder of females based solely upon their gender is less important to society than the murder of minorities based solely upon their race/religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation. If you do not see the dicotomy of such "special" status in a free and equal society, then we will have to agree to disagree.

Even if what you said were true, it does not lead to the conclusion you have formed. Society has a long tradition of prosecuting criminals differently based on the perceived harm to society. If our society has decided that murders based on race/religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation represent a greater harm to our society than murder based on gender, then I see nothing in our legal traditions that prevents us from doing so. We have a long history of basing the sentence of a crime on the motive of the perpetrator and it does not in any way endanger our free and equal society because these laws protect every race/religion/ethnicity/sexual orientation equally. When you can identify people who hanve no race, no beliefs about religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation, then you might have a case for unequal protection under the law. Until then, the law protects all people equally.

sangha · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

DiAnna said:
So you are saying in the bolded part that murdering a person of Mexican descent because one hates Mexican should be punished more harshly than a crime where one merely stalked and murdered women, even though all the crimes were premeditated? This is fairness to you... why? Because stalking and murdering women because one hates women is less of a crime against society than murdering a minority because one hates minorities?

I disagree. Premeditated murder is premeditated murder. The law should judge them equally.

Can you explain why premeditated murder should be punished more harshly than non-premeditated murder? That is, if that is what you believe (I'm not sure)

sangha · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Krasche said:
Umm... I don't understand hate crime laws at all. I know their meant for if you kill someone of another race under suspicion of "hating them".... but people who commit crimes against others of the same race still hate that person..... So aren't all violent crimes technically "Hate crimes"? Because last I checked you don't shoot somebody you like. You don't just walk up to your buddy and be like "What's up" and shoot them. It doesn't happen.. All violent crimes are fueled by hate, no matter the race of the victim, so I find hate crime laws rather stupid.

Well, actually, when it comes to "murder for hire", there need not be any hate involved at all. Money has often been a motive.

Anf hate crime laws do not require a jury to determine any suspects state of mind. Simply put, if a jury decides that the perp was motivated to commit the crime by his bias against the victims race/religion/ethnicity/etc then the convicted is subject to greater penalties. This is not any different from the hundreds of other laws which provide different punishments for the same criminal act based on the motive of the perpetrator. Murder for hire is punished more harshly than some other forms of murder. Murders committed during the commission of another crime are sometimes treated more harshly than murder for some other reasons.

sangha · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Krasche said:
Fair enough. But they didn't kill that entire group, they killed one man who happened to be in that group. The crime is the same regardless of motive.

Motive has often been used to apply greater penalties to the convicted.

sangha · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

j-mac said:
Earlier I spoke about a young man in Columbia SC that was attacked by a group of black males...Here is the story with some follow up

Then a follow up

Notice that the police asked the FBI to review to make sure that hate crimes charges were NOT warranted. If this were reversed, I am nearly positive that the wording would have been reversed.

Now this area is predominately a young white solid middle class area, here are the demographics...

Now this is an average up and coming area of SC, income above the median for the country, low crime, and advertised as a place to raise young children.

Now the likelihood is that these black youths were not members of this community, so that leads to them premeditating to come to that area to harass people and cause trouble. Again I assert if this were white teens migrating to a black neighborhood to do this than hate crime charges would not be in question. So why is it now?

j-mac

According to what you wrote, and I have no idea how complete that was, the police determined that the motive was not racial hatred, but theft. And they asked the FBI to weigh in to ensure they were making the correct decision. As has been pointed out in a previous post, hate crimes require more than just an exclamation that expresses bias against a group. It requires that the prosecution prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the criminal act was motivated by bias

DiAnna · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

theplaydrive said:
Um no, I'm not. I said that anyone who becomes more racially divided because of the existence of hate crimes is already racist to begin with so the idea hate crime legislation increases racial division matters is irrelevant to me when considering it's effect on society.

No, I accept anyone's belief that hate crime legislation should not exist even if I do not subscribe to them. What I do not accept is your refusal to acknowledge the fact that hate crimes are not "equal" to non-hate crimes. Hate crimes have greater actual and potential societal effects than non-hate crimes. To deny this is to deny reality.

It is not "reality" merely because you say that it is. It is not my reality. I do not believe that a serial killer that stalks and murders women has less effect on society than the person who kills a minority out of racism. It's as simple as that. Hate crimes denigrate the lives of individuals who are victims of exactly the same crimes simply because they do not belong to a protected minority. To deny that is, in my view, to deny reality and I'm hardly the only one who feels this way.

DiAnna · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

sangha said:
Can you explain why premeditated murder should be punished more harshly than non-premeditated murder? That is, if that is what you believe (I'm not sure)

This question applied to the post you quoted makes absolutely no sense.

sangha · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

DiAnna said:
It is not "reality" merely because you say that it is. It is not my reality. I do not believe that a serial killer that stalks and murders women has less effect on society than the person who kills a minority out of racism. It's as simple as that. Hate crimes denigrate the lives of individuals who are victims of exactly the same crimes simply because they do not belong to a protected minority. To deny that is, in my view, to deny reality and I'm hardly the only one who feels this way.

Regardless of your reality, our govt has decided that it is through the democratic process. What you believe is at odds with the majority of society.

DiAnna · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Tettsuo said:
I was asking a question... reread it.

In that case, I was answering your question... reread it.

SheWolf · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

MrVicchio said:
I don't like "Hate crime" legislation as a general rule. A crime is a crime is a crime. However, here is a case that common sense says "Yeah, race mattered here". Sad really this requires "investigation"

I think you're just saying it's a hate crime because a white was a victim.

SheWolf · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

ecofarm said:
It wouldn't be the first hate crime against a white successfully prosecuted. I support (US, not Euro-free-speech-restrictions) hate crime legislation; hate crime is terrorism and requires more severe action. If the accused are members of a white-hate group or white-hate literature is discovered in their background (that's the investigation required, Vic), nail the damn terrorists.

"Yeah, race matered here" is not enough. It must be the clear (physical evidenced) motivation of the crime. Calling someone the n-word and then punching them does not qualify as a hate crime. It's amazing how many people don't understand US hate crime legislation; it's short and clear.

I agree... Hate is a motive in certain crimes. Some crimes are premeditated, some are committed in passion, and some people are motivated by hate. We have hate groups. A crime is a crime. A motive is a motive. I don't get why people say there is no such thing as a hate crime.

SheWolf · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

winston53660 said:
Meh I got beaten up once in a race riot in Brooklyn.

That's sexy, do you have any scars.... :lamo :lamo

sangha · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

DiAnna said:
This question applied to the post you quoted makes absolutely no sense.

Pre meditated murders are punished more harshly because society has decided that they present a greater danger to society. If it is OK to punish a pre meditated murder more harshly than a non pre-meditated one because it does more damage to society , then why is it wrong to punish one pre-meditated murder more harshly than another pre-meditated murder that does not harm society as much as the first pre-meditated murder?

As a society, we have never punished all murders the same way. Not even murders in the same class. Sentences are, and have always been, determined by a wide range of factors such as the heinous nature of the crime, the means used, the intent and yes, THE MOTIVE. So why is it wrong to use motive to enhance a sentence when we have a long history of using motive to enhance a sentence?

sangha · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

SheWolf said:
I agree... Hate is a motive in certain crimes. Some crimes are premeditated, some are committed in passion, and some people are motivated by hate. We have hate groups. A crime is a crime. A motive is a motive. I don't get why people say there is no such thing as a hate crime.

We have a long history of basing sentences on a variety of factors including motive. HCL's are completely consistent with this legal tradition

SheWolf · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Aunt Spiker said:
It's bad - generally speaking anytime someone is harassed adn beaten is bad. It is not *more bad* because he was white and *maybe* it was racially charged - because that belief (which is what hate crime legislation does) makes it worse to be beaten (or not as bad) depending on WHY the attack happened.

If someone attacked me and I don't know the motive - that hsould be no different than if they called me a certain name. Anyone - regardless of motive - should receive equal punishment.

Somewhere out there is someone who was attacked as well - in the same way - but the assailants just didn't psit out a few hateful slurs and *therefor* those assailants got off a little lighter.

Should they? Shouldn't everyone be punished equally for the ACTION of their crime - not their THOUGHT process?

I agree that sometimes there is a blurry line, but sometimes there isn't a blurry line. Some hate groups actively go out and target people simply because of their race, ethnicity, etc. In the the courtroom, hate is an undeniable motive in that situation and it cannot be ignored. We shouldn't tolerate hate or hate crimes, or just shrug when a neo nazi stomps on somebody's head in because they are simply Jewish and act like it's "just a assault." We should be tough of those people and those groups.

ThePlayDrive · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

DiAnna said:
I do not believe that a serial killer that stalks and murders women has less effect on society than the person who kills a minority out of racism.

When is the last time riots broke out after a serial killer stalked and murdered women? When is last time tensions between men and women escalated because a serial killer stalked and killed women? Riots can happen and tension escalates when hate crimes against minorities and gay people happen, locally or nationally. If you don't see that, then you're the one whose not acknowledging reality and that's the reality that hate crime legislation takes into account.

SheWolf · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

spud_meister said:
:lamo Terrorism, really? What, exactly, makes someone a terrorist if they punch a black guy and call him a nigger rather than if they just punch him?

Look into lynch mobs in American history or the way the KKK openly treated blacks... it does constitute as terrorism and it was sick.

SheWolf · Jul 22, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

ecofarm said:
Americans here need to read their hate crime legislation and some case history, this is pathetic. People taking positions when they have no idea what they're talking about.

People are idiots. They think hate crimes legislation is just affording special protection to minorities and non whites. It's basically white people throwing a fit, and the fact is, hate crime legislation protects whites as much as any other race.

Hatuey · Jul 23, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

spud_meister said:
:lamo Terrorism, really? What, exactly, makes someone a terrorist if they punch a black guy and call him a nigger rather than if they just punch him?

With posts like the above, no wonder Australia and most Australians still wont acknowledge the way they raped, terrorized, isolated, drugged and then condemned aboriginals to living in giant cages. The ignorance of most people when discussing racism should come as absolutely no surprise. However, it's always shocking when somebody makes a snarky remark about it. The way it has been used in order to subjugate millions of people around the world, including whites, is indeed terrorism. When whites in Rhodesia were being killed by black vigilantes, that was terrorism and well as racism. When whites were running around the US South burning up little girls in churches, that was terrorism as well as racism. Why was it terrorism? It was terrorism because it was meant to terrorize an entire community of people. Why was it racism? Well, they weren't being killed because they had prettier hair. The post above is a perfect example of why discussing race with the average individual is useless. It's really far more complex than the average little mind can understand. The debate eventually gets dumbed down to: "YEAH! WELL I DIDN'T OWN SLAVEZ! omdfgsa"

ecofarm · Jul 23, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

j-mac said:
So why is it now?

j-mac

Regarding the case you cite...

There needs to be evidence that race was the only motive (or, in liberal interpretation of the law, at least the vastly primary factor). Prove that a rich black community nearby would not have been a fine selection for the accused in question. To establish this we must find evidence of involvement in white-hate organizations or literature. Lacking said evidence, it must be presumed that the neighborhood was a target of opportunity and that the youth were not hunting white people for the purpose of inciting terror.

The same is true in the case of the OP. We must establish an association with a hate-group or with hate literature in order to charge the accused with a hate crime. It cannot be a personal, financial or random-violence crime and be a hate crime. We must support the motive of hate with undeniable evidence, in order to set aside all possible other motives.

Class dissed.

ecofarm · Jul 23, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

I'd like to note that there are very few hate crime trials and convictions in the US, because of the burden of evidence. As an acquittal means the person cannot be tried again for regular murder (the strongest and most rational basis for arguing against hate crimes), we do not use the charge unless the case is basically already closed from the git go. The asking for additional investigation (in either case) is in hopes of finding a "smoking gun" (hate organization or literature). The vast majority of hate crimes are probably prosecuted as regular crimes because of a lack, or ambiguity, of the physical evidence relating to the charge of hate crime.

j-mac · Jul 23, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

sangha said:
According to what you wrote, and I have no idea how complete that was, the police determined that the motive was not racial hatred, but theft. And they asked the FBI to weigh in to ensure they were making the correct decision. As has been pointed out in a previous post, hate crimes require more than just an exclamation that expresses bias against a group. It requires that the prosecution prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the criminal act was motivated by bias

And I think it was....There was no reason for these youths to be in that neighborhood. The police, and the FBI made the wrong determination here. If this were a gang of white kids, stalking a black neighborhood and beating the hell out of black people to rob them then you can bet your arse, that Sharpton, Jackson, and the rest of the race hustlers would be out in droves. But let that be a young white man, and nothing.

j-mac

Иосиф Сталин · Jul 23, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

That happened because you're stupid and weak and because this whole society bought into that moronic MTV CNN philosophy of loving everyone no matter what. Then people are suprised when things like this happen. They shouldn't. There's no interest in equal rights, there never was. This is all an invention of white bourgeois society because they're too weak to fight and they don't want their bourgeois lifestyle to be inconvenienced. So they come up with these fake theories that we can get to this point of total justice and complete tolerance in society, when in fact that is completely impossible given man's biological characteristics.

j-mac · Jul 23, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

Иосиф Сталин;1059677905 said:
That happened because you're stupid and weak and because this whole society bought into that moronic MTV CNN philosophy of loving everyone no matter what. Then people are suprised when things like this happen. They shouldn't. There's no interest in equal rights, there never was. This is all an invention of white bourgeois society because they're too weak to fight and they don't want their bourgeois lifestyle to be inconvenienced. So they come up with these fake theories that we can get to this point of total justice and complete tolerance in society, when in fact that is completely impossible given man's biological characteristics.

Stalin's communism was a complete failure.

j-mac

sangha · Jul 23, 2011

Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

ecofarm said:
I'd like to note that there are very few hate crime trials and convictions in the US, because of the burden of evidence. As an acquittal means the person cannot be tried again for regular murder (the strongest and most rational basis for arguing against hate crimes), we do not use the charge unless the case is basically already closed from the git go. The asking for additional investigation (in either case) is in hopes of finding a "smoking gun" (hate organization or literature). The vast majority of hate crimes are probably prosecuted as regular crimes because of a lack, or ambiguity, of the physical evidence relating to the charge of hate crime.

That's not entirely true. No one is tried on a charge of "hate crime" alone. People who are accussed of committing a hate crime are also charged with an underlying crime, such as murder. As I understand it, the hate crime charge is added to the indictment. The judge or jury can find the accused guilty of the underlying crime, and then considers whether or not the accussed is also guilty of violating the hate crimes law. If so, additional penalties are added to the sentence.

As far as the use of these laws, here's a chart to put it into perspective

I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read more:

sangha

sangha

sangha

sangha

sangha

DiAnna

Hooter Babe

DiAnna

Hooter Babe

sangha

DiAnna

Hooter Babe

SheWolf

SheWolf

SheWolf

sangha

sangha

SheWolf

ThePlayDrive

SheWolf

SheWolf

Hatuey

Rule of Two

ecofarm

global liberation

ecofarm

global liberation

j-mac

Иосиф Сталин

Member

j-mac

sangha