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  1. #191
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Not really. Hate crimes have larger potential and actual societal effects than non-hate crimes.
    And why is that?

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Krasche View Post
    And why is that?
    Hate crimes increase the morale of hate groups, increase racial/sexuality based tensions in society and have an increased potential for retaliatory actions than non-hate crimes.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Hate crimes increase the morale of hate groups, increase racial/sexuality based tensions in society and have an increased potential for retaliatory actions than non-hate crimes.
    So say a white man kills a black man, and it's technically a "non-hate" crime, are you saying that hate groups won't identify with the killer/victim, and that they won't start feuding over it just because the killer only hated the individual, and not the entire group? or have you factored in the possibility that it can still be perceived as a hate crime to the general public?

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Krasche View Post
    So say a white man kills a black man, and it's technically a "non-hate" crime, are you saying that hate groups won't identify with the killer/victim, and that they won't start feuding over it just because the killer only hated the individual, and not the entire group? or have you factored in the possibility that it can still be perceived as a hate crime to the general public?
    Anything can be perceived as a hate crime by the public, but when a crime is clearly a hate crime and proven so in a court of law - all the effects I listed in the previous post have a greater potential of materializing. For example, if the white man in your example kills a black man and he belongs to a white supremacy group, then such groups will see that action as a victory and moral booster, racial tension will escalate in the region or the country and retaliation may occur.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by theplaydrive View Post
    Anything can be perceived as a hate crime by the public, but when a crime is clearly a hate crime and proven so in a court of law - all the effects I listed in the previous post have a greater potential of materializing. For example, if the white man in your example kills a black man and he belongs to a white supremacy group, then such groups will see that action as a victory and moral booster, racial tension will escalate in the region or the country and retaliation may occur.
    If that is the case, then Hate Crime laws should be abolished. If it isn't a "hate crime" it will not be publically announced as such, just as another murder. Which, if annouced as just a murder, based on your theory, would reduce the possibility of morale boost of hate groups, thus reducing possibility of retaliation.

  6. #196
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Krasche View Post
    Umm... I don't understand hate crime laws at all. I know their meant for if you kill someone of another race under suspicion of "hating them".... but people who commit crimes against others of the same race still hate that person..... So aren't all violent crimes technically "Hate crimes"? Because last I checked you don't shoot somebody you like. You don't just walk up to your buddy and be like "What's up" and shoot them. It doesn't happen.. All violent crimes are fueled by hate, no matter the race of the victim, so I find hate crime laws rather stupid.
    The answer is a couple posts above yours. But I'll quote it since it seems that no one here actually knows wtf a hate crime entails.


    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    People don't even know that one must establish prior, organized activities or personal collections, establishing that the crime WAS NOT PERSONAL for a hate crime charge. For a hate crime charge, the motive must, indeed, be political - basically, terrorism. If it was a personal thing or the person has no established history of hate activities, it is not a hate crime. Calling someone a Jew before you shoot them does not make a hate crime. They'd have to find anti-Jew history, activities, memberships or material in your possession (and the person can't really be someone you have a relationship with - that doesn't make any damn sense if you know anything about hate crime law); thus, establish that the crime, once again, was not personally, financially or otherwise motivated.

    It's can't be "oh, he turned into a Nazi today". No dude, you gotta establish that he is and was a Nazi with physical evidence and that's why he did it.


    Ignorance. All over the place.
    It has nothing to do with "protected groups". There are no "protected groups" in hate crime law. Hate crime is about being a part of an organized effort to terrorize a specific group of people (and that group CAN be heterosexual white middle-class males).

    Again, there are no "protected groups". There is merely additional charges for being part of an organized effort to target by group - the crime cannot be personally or financially or otherwise motivated.

    This is no different than other organized crime laws. No different than difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder. No different than anti-terrorism laws. Someone, please, get a clue.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 07-22-11 at 03:35 AM.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by Krasche View Post
    If that is the case, then Hate Crime laws should be abolished. If it isn't a "hate crime" it will not be publically announced as such, just as another murder. Which, if annouced as just a murder, based on your theory, would reduce the possibility of morale boost of hate groups, thus reducing possibility of retaliation.
    No, because proof of biased hatred will end up being brought up in the trial as a motive anyway. In other words, the public will have the same knowledge of the criminal regardless of what the crime is called and the same effects of such knowledge that I listed above will be relevant. The only difference is that the criminal will not be tried for creating such societal effects.

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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Earlier I spoke about a young man in Columbia SC that was attacked by a group of black males...Here is the story with some follow up

    Vicki said her son was headed home after
    visiting a friend slightly past his midnight curfew. "At 12:07 he wasn't
    home, I called him and said 'Carter where are you?'" recounted Vicki.
    "He said 'Momma, I'm almost home. I'll be there in just a minute.' At
    12:15 I called, but the phone was dead."


    Timmons said surveillance video taken in the
    area shows four of the suspects running towards Carter, though police
    only released video of the suspects walking on Harden Street.
    Investigators believe the suspects assaulted Carter and stole his cell
    phone before leaving him in the parking lot.


    After
    the assault, Scott said Carter managed to make it a block down the road
    to Edisto Avenue, where a passerby found him two hours later and called
    9-1-1. Carter was taken to a local hospital, where he is still in
    critical condition.


    Vicki said she rushed to the hospital and
    found a son she could barely recognize. "I literally bent over him; I
    recognized his hand and his hair, and I said 'that's my son,'" Vicki
    told WIS News 10.


    Carter's family told police the beating was
    so severe he required emergency surgery to remove a brain clot. He had
    his second surgery Friday afternoon, which was for facial
    reconstruction. It's Carter's latest step in a long road to recovery.
    "He did nothing to them," said Vicki. "They didn't know him, they didn't
    know the kind of person he was, they don't know the kind of man he's
    grown up to be and they don't know the lives he's touched. But they
    thought he was so less of a person, they thought this would be okay."

    snip

    Police said Henrey and the seven juveniles he
    was with were roaming Five Points, targeting others until they came
    across strange. In fact, investigators said the group tried
    unsuccessfully to rob or assault at least four other people.
    White teen brutally attacked by black teens. Hate crime?
    Then a follow up

    COLUMBIA, SC (WISTV) — Prosecutors say the brutal beating of a teenager last week in Columbia’s Five Points doesn't appear to have been racially motivated, but the U.S. attorney is still reviewing the case.

    Fifth Circuit Solicitor Dan Johnson, who will prosecute the eight people charged with attacking 18-year-old Carter Strange on June 20 before leaving him for dead, said no evidence suggests the beating was racially motivated other than the race of the people involved. Strange is white; the eight suspects are black.

    However, Johnson said his office asked U.S. Attorney Bill Nettles to review the evidence to make sure hate crime charges are not warranted.

    A hate crime is legally defined as an attack motivated entirely or primarily by prejudice.

    LiveLeak.com - No Hate Crime Charges for 8 Black Youths Accused in Brutal Beating of White Teen?
    Notice that the police asked the FBI to review to make sure that hate crimes charges were NOT warranted. If this were reversed, I am nearly positive that the wording would have been reversed.

    Now this area is predominately a young white solid middle class area, here are the demographics...

    Five Forks Simpsonville National
    Median Household Income: - - $47,223 $44,512
    Single Males: - - 12.0% 14.6%
    Single Females: - - 9.9% 12.5%
    Median Age: - - 32 36
    Homes With Kids: - - 38.6% 31.4%
    Average Household Size: - - 2.67 2.589
    Average Commute Time (Minutes): - - 22.787 26.376

    Five Forks People & Five Forks Demographics - Zillow Local Info
    The 2010 Five Forks, SC, population is 13,310. There are 1,726 people per square mile (population density).

    Family in Five Forks, SC

    The median age is 34.8. The US median is 36.8. 79.63% of people in Five Forks, SC, are married. 5.58% are divorced.

    The average household size is 3.07 people. 48.94% of people are married, with children. 4.73% have children, but are single.

    Race in Five Forks, SC

    88.90% of people are white, 3.55% are black, 4.03% are asian, 0.36% are native american, and 3.16% claim 'Other'.

    4.48% of the people in Five Forks, SC, claim hispanic ethnicity (meaning 95.52% are non-hispanic).

    snip

    Five Forks, SC, violent crime, on a scale from 1 (low crime) to 10, is 4. Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. The US average is 4.

    Five Forks, SC, property crime, on a scale from 1 (low) to 10, is 4. Property crime includes the offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson. The object of the theft-type offenses is the taking of money or property, but there is no force or threat of force against the victims. The US average is 4.

    Crime in Five Forks, South Carolina
    Now this is an average up and coming area of SC, income above the median for the country, low crime, and advertised as a place to raise young children.

    Now the likelihood is that these black youths were not members of this community, so that leads to them premeditating to come to that area to harass people and cause trouble. Again I assert if this were white teens migrating to a black neighborhood to do this than hate crime charges would not be in question. So why is it now?

    j-mac
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  9. #199
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    So you are saying in the bolded part that murdering a person of Mexican descent because one hates Mexican should be punished more harshly than a crime where one merely stalked and murdered women, even though all the crimes were premeditated? This is fairness to you... why? Because stalking and murdering women because one hates women is less of a crime against society than murdering a minority because one hates minorities?

    I disagree. Premeditated murder is premeditated murder. The law should judge them equally.
    I was asking a question... reread it.
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    Re: I was beaten, taunted for being white, Bronx man says after subway attack Read m

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with the concept of hate crime statutes and the protected status of certain individuals is automatically racist and homophobic? Because that is patently untrue.

    I do not expect you to "buy" my argument, because I'm not actually arguing with you. Rather, I'm expressing an opinion on hate-crime statutes that is different from your position, and explaining my reasoning. You do not accept my reasoning; I do not accept yours.
    I wouldn't say that opposition to hate crime laws is necesarily the result of any form of bigotry (though it sometimes may be) but I do believe it requires beliefs that run contrary to our legal traditions going back to the first days of this nations, and beyond.
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